Titanic tourist submersible gone missing

munckee

Creed_Clicks said:

100s dead in the Med, and it is yesterday's news already.

I think the difference is there is a very slim chance of saving these 5 which makes it a big deal.  While the migrants deaths were tragic they were already dead. 

VimFuego

@haych, sorry wasn't meant as a rebuke. In some respects the everest thing is worse than this. At least this sub incident isn't putting other people at extreme risk. A few years back, there was the worst single day for fatalities on the mountain. I can't recall all the details now, but before the incident that led to the deaths, the sherpas had basically gone on strike, they were so concerned about how hard they were being pushed and their safety was being compromised. Despite that, many attempted and succeeded in getting people down during the storm, and IIRC one died. 

Haych

@VimFuego don't worry, I didn't take it as a rebuke, but you did make a valid point in that those who choose to attempt Everest have to put forth some effort.  

The Everest equivalent to the sub, if it were possible, would be climbing into a helicopter and flying to the summit.

Emp_Fab

I honestly think it's a pointless exercise now.  It's 99.9999% certain they are already dead, and in the infinitesimally tiny possibility they aren't, the odds of finding them at all are virtually nil.  The odds of finding and recovering them alive in the remaining single-digit hours of remaining oxygen is several orders of magnitude less than that.

Haych

Emp_Fab said:

I honestly think it's a pointless exercise now.  It's 99.9999% certain they are already dead, and in the infinitesimally tiny possibility they aren't, the odds of finding them at all are virtually nil.  The odds of finding and recovering them alive in the remaining single-digit hours of remaining oxygen is several orders of magnitude less than that.

I think it's fair to say that it's now a recovery mission, not a rescue mission.

VimFuego

"The Everest equivalent to the sub, if it were possible, would be climbing into a helicopter and flying to the summit."

yeah, good point, though at least you'd get the view. Admittedly, being claustrophobic I'm probably biased (the thought of being locked into a small metal cylinder with 4 other people gives me the screaming heeby jeebies) but I can't see the appeal. As I understand it, if it had all gone OK, then the only thing they'd have seen would be on a tv screen or though a tiny porthole. Not my idea of fun at all!

Kittyfrisk

^ @Emp_Fab ; I don't think it is a pointless exercise. I'd say that it was a hugely significant learning event in the international organisation, co-ordination & delivery of such search & rescue resources.
In the future (and hopefully in this case) this experience could prove to be life saving.

darthed1981

mrkb said:

Any vehicle that might be able to do a recovery might not be seaready at short notice, they take some time to prep and get ready to transport (for example alot of the uk military submarines are having maintenance at any one time, not many at sea), then dive - it cant be rushed or you'll have an additional accident occurring soon after the first one.

Actually, NATO make sure sub rescue resources ARE ready to go at any one time from any of the navies that have them (the US, Britain, France) in case they get a "gray lady down" however this is potentially far too deep for a standard DSRV.

Really, going to that depth is a job for drones and robots, not a cylinder full of people who can't see a thing anyway, though I suppose they take turns at the little porthole.

Side note - anyone else seen "Gray Lady Down"?  It's a good film.

mrkb

darthed1981 said:

mrkb said:

Any vehicle that might be able to do a recovery might not be seaready at short notice, they take some time to prep and get ready to transport (for example alot of the uk military submarines are having maintenance at any one time, not many at sea), then dive - it cant be rushed or you'll have an additional accident occurring soon after the first one.

Actually, NATO make sure sub rescue resources ARE ready to go at any one time from any of the navies that have them (the US, Britain, France) in case they get a "gray lady down" however this is potentially far too deep for a standard DSRV.

Really, going to that depth is a job for drones and robots, not a cylinder full of people who can't see a thing anyway, though I suppose they take turns at the little porthole.

Side note - anyone else seen "Gray Lady Down"?  It's a good film.

Hence why I said "might" - any delay in scrambling a rescue mission at very short notice into an unusual scenario (3 miles under the sea) could be down to a number of reasons - not just they forgot to phone the people with suitable equipment immediately! Even an already at sea submarine can only to 600 miles a day, so its a couple of days to cross the atlantic from europe. 

VimFuego

"though I suppose they take turns at the little porthole." ah, that takes me back. 

sorry, serious subject, no place for schoolboy humour.

LionAquaLooper

RaymondLin said:

Do these other subs capable of going down to this depth have the ability to recover them? either attach some surfacing gear, or tow?

They say there's a vessel there that specialises in hauling up heavy objects like wrecks and such, and it has a 6km cable that an ROV can take down and attach to the Titan. The vessel is called the FADOSS I believe. 

goldtop

LionAquaLooper said:

RaymondLin said:

Do these other subs capable of going down to this depth have the ability to recover them? either attach some surfacing gear, or tow?

They say there's a vessel there that specialises in hauling up heavy objects like wrecks and such, and it has a 6km cable that an ROV can take down and attach to the Titan. The vessel is called the FADOSS I believe. 

And most likely not designed for a rescue mission where time is of the essence, and making the ascent survivable for passengers is also needed.

When the Kursk went down, the RN offered Russia help with its own deep-sea recovery submersible, but Putin said 'no' - until it was too late. That was just 100-odd metres depth - and I don't think these RN recovery vehicles can operate at 4000 meters.

LionAquaLooper

One thing I've wondered is if these noises they're hearing are from within the Titan - wouldn't it logical to think that the noises would be in morse code spelling out SOS?  At least 2 or 3 of the passengers are supposedly very experienced travellers/divers/adventurers so would likely know morse code.  So maybe it isn't them making those noises.  There are so many boats out there making a lot of noise and could be a coincidence they're hearing it every half hour.  

hollywoodrox

Danny1969 said:

The Russians have had very deep sea submersibles for a long time capable of more than the Titanic depth. James Cameron made something like 20 trips to the Titanic in one and actually went down in the Mariana Trench, which I think is the deepest point of any ocean 
But I guess getting down there is one thing, finding another sub in the pitch black and bringing it back is a whole other challenge. I think they will find them but I suspect the electrical system has some kind of failure and even if they have oxygen the carbon dioxide will kill them as the filtration system is likely not working.  

I recall that Mariana Trench trip by Cameron being used to advertise a Rolex sea dweller I’m sure 

Devil#20

We'll find the fate of this sub in the next few days maybe. As I understand it, following the last distress call (what did they say), there has been no further communication (regular or otherwise despite reports to the contrary). So they still had power to transmit the distress call. If power was subsequently lost then SOS tapped on the hull in Morse is the obvious alternative. That didn't happen and therefore, the only scenarios left is failure of the air supply or catastrophic hull failure. The only other possible scenario is somebody on there went postal. Either way they died on Sunday. Not what you want to hear but it's true.

That aside, I find it unethical making money to take rich tourists to the site of human tragedy and it should now stop. It shouldn't have started in the first place really.

darthed1981

mrkb said:

darthed1981 said:

mrkb said:

Any vehicle that might be able to do a recovery might not be seaready at short notice, they take some time to prep and get ready to transport (for example alot of the uk military submarines are having maintenance at any one time, not many at sea), then dive - it cant be rushed or you'll have an additional accident occurring soon after the first one.

Actually, NATO make sure sub rescue resources ARE ready to go at any one time from any of the navies that have them (the US, Britain, France) in case they get a "gray lady down" however this is potentially far too deep for a standard DSRV.

Really, going to that depth is a job for drones and robots, not a cylinder full of people who can't see a thing anyway, though I suppose they take turns at the little porthole.

Side note - anyone else seen "Gray Lady Down"?  It's a good film.

Hence why I said "might" - any delay in scrambling a rescue mission at very short notice into an unusual scenario (3 miles under the sea) could be down to a number of reasons - not just they forgot to phone the people with suitable equipment immediately! Even an already at sea submarine can only to 600 miles a day, so its a couple of days to cross the atlantic from europe. 

Yes indeed, agreed.

Haych

Devil#20 said:

We'll find the fate of this sub in the next few days maybe. As I understand it, following the last distress call (what did they say), there has been no further communication (regular or otherwise despite reports to the contrary). So they still had power to transmit the distress call. If power was subsequently lost then SOS tapped on the hull in Morse is the obvious alternative. That didn't happen and therefore, the only scenarios left is failure of the air supply or catastrophic hull failure. The only other possible scenario is somebody on there went postal. Either way they died on Sunday. Not what you want to hear but it's true.

That aside, I find it unethical making money to take rich tourists to the site of human tragedy and it should now stop. It shouldn't have started in the first place really.

What?  There was a distress call made from the sub?  I'd not heard that before.  I thought it was just a case of contact being lost?

Offset

Haych said:

The Everest equivalent to the sub, if it were possible, would be climbing into a helicopter and flying to the summit.

...a helicopter with no parachutes, with no black box or RT, and piloted by Michael O'Leary.

Gilly

LionAquaLooper said:

One thing I've wondered is if these noises they're hearing are from within the Titan - wouldn't it logical to think that the noises would be in morse code spelling out SOS?  At least 2 or 3 of the passengers are supposedly very experienced travellers/divers/adventurers so would likely know morse code.  So maybe it isn't them making those noises.  There are so many boats out there making a lot of noise and could be a coincidence they're hearing it every half hour.  

I’m not convinced they are hearing them every half hour. The reporting of this seems conflicting. On the BBC website it says “some sources” are reporting it but if you read their coverage carefully they don’t state it as a fact. 

Apparently banging 3 minutes on the hour and at half past is the protocol so in that case SOS would presumably be redundant?

It would be too much of a coincidence if they heard noises as per the protocol and if they did they surely would be making much more of it.

LionAquaLooper

Not completely redundant I think.  SOS in morse would be more definitive than regular noises at regular intervals.   Whoever's listening wouldn't need to wait at least 3x repetitions every half hour to conclude it's not a coincidence. 
But maybe they are/were banging in morse code but because they're hitting a carbon fibre hull it's getting bloody muffled!.