Line 6 Helix

hubobulous

......or just use snapshots within the same patch for different guitars? So snapshots 1-2 could be set with gain/boost/volume levels for the strat, 3-4 for the medium output and 5-6 for the high output pickups? There's 2 spare to use for other options.

stratman3142

John_A said:

Just create copies of your main patch with a boost in front of them and use those with your Strat

It's fine. I've done it now, although the other way around by inserting a simple gain reduction block to avoid having to adjust the individual compressor and OD/distortion settings which had already been set up for my Strat. But I know what it's like live in the heat of the moment, where I might not have the presence of mind to rapidly switch to a separate bank, so I think I'll keep a separate gain boost pedal handy for rapid changeovers to a backup guitar (now my Strat).

What's slightly odd is the new output level meters always stayed green, even without the gain reduction and with large amounts of internal gain included. Maybe I didn't push the levels hard enough for them to go red. But that's not an issue, just a curiosity thing.

guitarmangler

Does anyone know if you can send one signal into 4 delays in parallel?
 I’ve managed to do it by having two paths and setting both to a multi input , but then I have to have two sets of amps/fx on each as well. I’d prefer just the one. I’m trying to emulate the Holdsworth settings for the yamaha ud delays.

Bezzer

stratman3142 said:

John_A said:

Just create copies of your main patch with a boost in front of them and use those with your Strat

It's fine. I've done it now, although the other way around by inserting a simple gain reduction block to avoid having to adjust the individual compressor and OD/distortion settings which had already been set up for my Strat. But I know what it's like live in the heat of the moment, where I might not have the presence of mind to rapidly switch to a separate bank, so I think I'll keep a separate gain boost pedal handy for rapid changeovers to a backup guitar (now my Strat).

What's slightly odd is the new output level meters always stayed green, even without the gain reduction and with large amounts of internal gain included. Maybe I didn't push the levels hard enough for them to go red. But that's not an issue, just a curiosity thing.

Pardon my ignorance but, is there a reason why you've reduced the input gain for the higher output guitars and not boosted for the strat?  I'm assuming so, as in the sound is FOR your strat and the other guitar is a backup.

I only ask as it feels backwards (I went through a similar process so there is no judgement) as to how you would operate with a real amplifier.  I think sometimes we over think modellers.  I approached it by rethinking and looking at my pedal board and valve amps (when I still had them).  So I set the sounds up for the highest output guitars then added a boost pedal I could kick in for my strat.  Advantage there was I could drop that out and go super clean.

I didn't notice a MASSIVE output level change flipping guitars around, no more than I would in the analogue world (at least at gig volumes) but did notice a change in how the amp would respond to high output humbuckers sticking a gain reduction in front.

Could be controlled by snapshots then easily enough, or by dropping into pedalboard operation.

Just my 2p and very happy to be ignored!  All personal preference init.

stratman3142

@Bezzer it's because I've already got things setup for my Strat output level for live use, which is based on years of tweaking and refining things through experience at numerous live gigs. It took me a long time to get things where I wanted for live gigs.

Levels that sound right at home don't always perfectly translate to higher volume live gigs. If I didn't include a gain offset, I'd have to go in and literally tweak every compressor and OD/distortion setting. 

I expect (if i ever get back to live gigging) I'll probably initially keep a gain pedal in front of my Helix LT as a trim whilst I get things back to my satisfaction.

Yes the same thing would apply to any pedalboard.

The sound is for my new AZ2402 which I plan to use as my main guitar with my Strat as backup. Although I'm seriously considering getting an AZ2204 now as well, so maybe the Strat will be out of the loop (because it's too bloody heavy). 

I'm not worried about home use.

stratman3142

guitarmangler said:

Does anyone know if you can send one signal into 4 delays in parallel?
 I’ve managed to do it by having two paths and setting both to a multi input , but then I have to have two sets of amps/fx on each as well. I’d prefer just the one. I’m trying to emulate the Holdsworth settings for the yamaha ud delays.

As I'm fiddling with my Helix now, I thought I'd have a quick look. I can't think of any way apart from what you've already suggested (pic below).

https://i.imgur.com/lmOPJ1H.png

Bezzer

@stratman3142 ah I see, that's cool, like I said it was in no way, shape or form a criticism!

(Oh, and those AZs are looooooovely things!)

guitarmangler

stratman3142 said:

guitarmangler said:

Does anyone know if you can send one signal into 4 delays in parallel?
 I’ve managed to do it by having two paths and setting both to a multi input , but then I have to have two sets of amps/fx on each as well. I’d prefer just the one. I’m trying to emulate the Holdsworth settings for the yamaha ud delays.

As I'm fiddling with my Helix now, I thought I'd have a quick look. I can't think of any way apart from what you've already suggested (pic below).

https://i.imgur.com/lmOPJ1H.png

Yep, that’s what I’m doing. I can’t think of any way of feeding the top line into the second without going through the delay. Thanks for trying ! 

Bezzer

@guitarmangler can you explain what you mean?  I've googled it but I get a lot of explanation of how revolutionary it was and not ... er ... what it was

My initial thought was split DSP 2 into 2 full paths and put a dual delay on each, so 2 delays in parallel (I think) on each path, split DSP 1 into 2 outputs and point 1A -> 2B and 1B -> 2B ... and while that will work, I'm not 100% sure it's what you're after.

EDIT : Which now I've said it is just the top half of Stratman's idea but with dual delays, which you will have thought of ... still curious though!

stratman3142

guitarmangler said:

stratman3142 said:

guitarmangler said:

Does anyone know if you can send one signal into 4 delays in parallel?
 I’ve managed to do it by having two paths and setting both to a multi input , but then I have to have two sets of amps/fx on each as well. I’d prefer just the one. I’m trying to emulate the Holdsworth settings for the yamaha ud delays.

As I'm fiddling with my Helix now, I thought I'd have a quick look. I can't think of any way apart from what you've already suggested (pic below).

https://i.imgur.com/lmOPJ1H.png

Yep, that’s what I’m doing. I can’t think of any way of feeding the top line into the second without going through the delay. Thanks for trying ! 

Here's a possible (somewhat convoluted method) that might work for you (see pic below). You'll need a patch cable between Helix 'Send' and 'Return' sockets. Adjust the 'Dry Thru' of the Send and the Mix of the Return to taste.

Not sure whether it's exactly the routing needed. I think there might be some phasing 'pipeline delay' issues going on based on what I'm hearing.


https://i.imgur.com/j3n3nbw.png

stratman3142

Just noticed what @Bezzer said. Yes I was wondering about the use of Dual Delays as well.

I couldn't find any detailed descriptions of the delays within the Helix. It might be worth tracking down original descriptions of the delays that are being emulated to see if those might offer better info. I can't help but feel that I'm missing something obvious here.

Cirrus

stratman3142 said:

Here's a possible (somewhat convoluted method) that might work for you (see pic below). You'll need a patch cable between Helix 'Send' and 'Return' sockets. Adjust the 'Dry Thru' of the Send and the Mix of the Return to taste.

Not sure whether it's exactly the routing needed. I think there might be some phasing 'pipeline delay' issues going on based on what I'm hearing.


https://i.imgur.com/j3n3nbw.png

If there *were* phasing it might make sense to only have the dry path on one DSP - for example, make the two delays on the bottom path 100% wet, and just blend them with the dry signal using the level setting of each block.

I can't help but ask what the aim is here in getting 4 parallel delays. 

stratman3142

Cirrus said:

I can't help but ask what the aim is here in getting 4 parallel delays. 

I believe it relates to trying to emulate the Yamaha UD Stomp delay. In my searches I found some interest in this within the Helix community. It's an interesting puzzle

edit: @Cirrus is correct. "If" there is a phasing issue it would make sense to avoid a second dry path. I should have known that from previous experience setting up a rack based system.

PolarityMan

Cirrus said:

I can't help but ask what the aim is here in getting 4 parallel delays. 

Trying out for Drew's band I guess.

guitarmangler

Er, it's not 4 parallel delays, it's 8! They are stereo delays which are panned!

The idea is Holdsworh's, but I believe it based on the maths used for the placement of an orchestra ( I can't remember what it's called, I'll try and find it later).

Basically the sound is somewhere between a reverb and delay, the delayed sound itself gets sort of 'lost' in a mix/band setting. It's kind of rhythmic/but not. Which doesn't make any sense. It also isn't really dependant on the tempo of the music.
The UD was based on his want of putting the rack delays and mixer a single box. So instead of the fridge based racks ( he'd have 4 stereo delays for clean, and then another 4 for overdrive `) he could just have two boxes. He also used multiple delays for a chorus sound, and his swell/ambient sound, too.
This is the list of the settings, if you want to try and program your own.

https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/7/313747/udstomp_en2.pdf

guitarmangler

stratman3142 said:

guitarmangler said:

stratman3142 said:

guitarmangler said:

Does anyone know if you can send one signal into 4 delays in parallel?
 I’ve managed to do it by having two paths and setting both to a multi input , but then I have to have two sets of amps/fx on each as well. I’d prefer just the one. I’m trying to emulate the Holdsworth settings for the yamaha ud delays.

As I'm fiddling with my Helix now, I thought I'd have a quick look. I can't think of any way apart from what you've already suggested (pic below).

https://i.imgur.com/lmOPJ1H.png

Yep, that’s what I’m doing. I can’t think of any way of feeding the top line into the second without going through the delay. Thanks for trying ! 

Here's a possible (somewhat convoluted method) that might work for you (see pic below). You'll need a patch cable between Helix 'Send' and 'Return' sockets. Adjust the 'Dry Thru' of the Send and the Mix of the Return to taste.

Not sure whether it's exactly the routing needed. I think there might be some phasing 'pipeline delay' issues going on based on what I'm hearing.


https://i.imgur.com/j3n3nbw.png

Ooo. It works, but there is a bit of phasing. I'll have a go at trying to reduce that tonight. Thanks !

stratman3142

@guitarmangler the phasing issue might relate to the Send (D to A) and then the Return (A to D). 

As mentioned, avoiding having two parallel dry paths should work (i.e. the second DSP path set on 100% wet).

I wonder whether having Sends and Returns in each path might be a way of matching the paths, so both DSP paths have a Send (D to A) and a Return (A to D). This would require the use of two Sends and two Returns. That would need more experiments, and my brain is starting to hurt now.

I also wonder whether it really matters if you have two amp/cabs if they're on identical settings (which is where we started).

guitarmangler

I’ve managed to do this . Bottom path is 100 % wet, with a stereo volume after to blend it back in. I’ll try and A/B with the ud to see if it’s much different during the week. Pretty good though! 

I agree, I could go back to the dual amp. I also could just stick a ud in the fx loop. But, where’s the fun in that! 

stratman3142

@guitarmangler

More insanity. I realise this has probably descended into the equivalent of solving Rubik's cube puzzles using Helix blocks   But it least it gives some deeper insights into the Helix.

I believe the phasing effect is (at least) reduced by including a second set of Send/Return blocks into the DSP1 path. See picture below.

https://i.imgur.com/fqLIVp7.png

So it's Amp+Cab to Send 1 (DSP1 path) to Return 1 (DSP2 path). Then the inclusion of Send 2 (DSP1 path) to Return 2 (DSP1 path). So each DSP path ends up with the equivalent (or similar) time offsets introduced by the D to A and A to D elements.

It's necessary to fiddle with Send Dry Thru and the Return Mix controls. For example, set Send 2 Dry Thru to -120db (the max. attenuation value) and Return 2 Mix to 100%.  Send 1 needs  a Thru signal which I assume remains in the digital domain.

guitarmangler

stratman3142 said:

@guitarmangler

More insanity. I realise this has probably descended into the equivalent of solving Rubik's cube puzzles using Helix blocks   But it least it gives some deeper insights into the Helix.

I believe the phasing effect is (at least) reduced by including a second set of Send/Return blocks into the DSP1 path. See picture below.

https://i.imgur.com/fqLIVp7.png

So it's Amp+Cab to Send 1 (DSP1 path) to Return 1 (DSP2 path). Then the inclusion of Send 2 (DSP1 path) to Return 2 (DSP1 path). So each DSP path ends up with the equivalent (or similar) time offsets introduced by the D to A and A to D elements.

It's necessary to fiddle with Send Dry Thru and the Return Mix controls. For example, set Send 2 Dry Thru to -120db (the max. attenuation value) and Return 2 Mix to 100%.  Send 1 needs  a Thru signal which I assume remains in the digital domain.

Thanks dude ! I’ve just had 5 spare mins to plug in and it works amazingly well. I would have never of thought of the two send and returns trick. You’re a genius !