EU Referendum Vote - Poll

ICBM

hugbot said:

Came of age in the recession and aren't keen on 3+ more years of it?

So leaving will extend austerity, or otherwise reduce the prospects for growth - isn't that what Remain have been telling us?

I'm genuinely curious - if extending the registration deadline is a government conspiracy, what's the logic behind it?

littlegreenman

ToneControl said:

littlegreenman said:

ToneControl said:

I wonder if we remain, we might find ourselves in the same situation as West Germany after reunification - where 65m West Germans still pay an extra 5.5% income tax to help rebuild (the much smaller - only 12.5m people) East Germany. So far they have paid more than 2000 billion Euros.

What if we were compelled by voters in poor, bankrupt South and Eastern Europe to pay an extra 10% income tax permanently, to pay to bring their countries up to UK standards - How many of us would be happy to do that? Turkey is on the list for inclusion soon - that is a country with a large population than the UK, and huge poverty

As far as I'm aware, Turkey has a long way to go before even being considered for inclusion. And that's ahead of even one member state veto'ing it, and I'm guessing at least one will. Ergo, no deal.

At least, that's how I'm reading the lay of the land. If I'm wrong, feel free to edumacate me.

Even if it's 10 years or 20, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35832035

can I return you to my main point - are you happy to leave the UK (e.g. my kids) to potentially be hammered with long-term taxes to upgrade countries over 1000 miles away?

Even if you disregard the veto, which from the article you posted seems like Holland would also use, there's the small matter of all the chapters that Turkey has yet to adhere to. 1 out of 37, in the decades they've been trying to get in.

If, in 10-20 years time they can prove they've built a stable economy, with equitable human rights, and can contribute to the EU on an equal footing whilst keeping the Syrian border secure then why not? Obvs, never going to happen.

ToneControl

RandallFlagg said:

government extends registration deadline to gain more youth remain votes

unbelievable cheating

ToneControl

littlegreenman said:

ToneControl said:

littlegreenman said:

ToneControl said:

I wonder if we remain, we might find ourselves in the same situation as West Germany after reunification - where 65m West Germans still pay an extra 5.5% income tax to help rebuild (the much smaller - only 12.5m people) East Germany. So far they have paid more than 2000 billion Euros.

What if we were compelled by voters in poor, bankrupt South and Eastern Europe to pay an extra 10% income tax permanently, to pay to bring their countries up to UK standards - How many of us would be happy to do that? Turkey is on the list for inclusion soon - that is a country with a large population than the UK, and huge poverty

As far as I'm aware, Turkey has a long way to go before even being considered for inclusion. And that's ahead of even one member state veto'ing it, and I'm guessing at least one will. Ergo, no deal.

At least, that's how I'm reading the lay of the land. If I'm wrong, feel free to edumacate me.

Even if it's 10 years or 20, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35832035

can I return you to my main point - are you happy to leave the UK (e.g. my kids) to potentially be hammered with long-term taxes to upgrade countries over 1000 miles away?

Even if you disregard the veto, which from the article you posted seems like Holland would also use, there's the small matter of all the chapters that Turkey has yet to adhere to. 1 out of 37, in the decades they've been trying to get in.

If, in 10-20 years time they can prove they've built a stable economy, with equitable human rights, and can contribute to the EU on an equal footing whilst keeping the Syrian border secure then why not? Obvs, never going to happen.

and you're confident that the Germans won't bend the rules now to "solve" the non-EU migrant crisis?

They fiddled Greece's entry to the Euro - and that was far less of a crisis

ToneControl

I'll ask this again - to separate it from Turkey talk:

I wonder if we remain, we might find ourselves in the same situation as West Germany after reunification - where 65m West Germans still pay an extra 5.5% income tax to help rebuild (the much smaller - only 12.5m people) East Germany. So far they have paid more than 2000 billion Euros.

What if we were compelled by voters in poor, bankrupt South and Eastern Europe to pay an extra 10% income tax permanently, to pay to bring their countries up to UK standards - How many of us would be happy to do that? 

littlegreenman

ToneControl said:

RandallFlagg said:

government extends registration deadline to gain more youth remain votes

unbelievable cheating

How? In the digital age, the window for registering to vote should be up until the absolute last minute it's viable to allow someone to actually then go and vote. i.e. Get their name on the local list at the polling station.

It doesn't benefit either side to deny people the right to vote, how could they know which way they were going to?

UnclePsychosis

For a campaign which claims to be all about giving Brits their democratic rights back Brexiters seem to be very, very angry at the thought that Britons might actually participate in a vote.

It's almost like they're not that fussed about democracy after all...

PolarityMan

So I've been thinking a little bit about the way the campaigning for this referendum has been going. Firstly I think that it's genuinely good that there are party splits in an issue like this and I think it's unfortunate that the media is trying their hardest to stir up tribal mentality in the wake of what is on the surface an excellent demonstration of how democracy ought to work. Having labour and conservative leaders share platforms on either side is I think a step away from the norm that should be welcomed.

Secondly I can kind of see an argument for some leaders to be campaigning about this, it is after all what they are in positions to do but I kind of feel that if you're not actually in the cabinet you should probably instead be representing your constituents and I'm extremely unconvinced form the news footage I've seen that anyone is taking their views from what is best for their constituency.

As the campaign has gone on I think I've gone from a vote remain as I don't think the leave side has done enough due diligence to straight out vote remain. Rather unsurprisingly it's the economic argument that has swayed me.From what I've seen on my social networks the only vote leavers left are either people for whom particular fringe issues are very important or those who just have a general anti-authoritarian streak.

I'd be pretty surprised if the results don't turn out to be 60% or so in favour of remain.

hugbot

ICBM said:

hugbot said:

Came of age in the recession and aren't keen on 3+ more years of it?

So leaving will extend austerity, or otherwise reduce the prospects for growth - isn't that what Remain have been telling us?

I'm genuinely curious - if extending the registration deadline is a government conspiracy, what's the logic behind it?

The thing is both remain and leave have been pulling out economists to say pretty much whatever they want.

So it makes sense to look at what the markets and buisnesses are saying, as their agenda (make money) is transparant at least. And every time someone so much as says "brexit" the pound takes a dive. Its at multi year lows right now because we're *thinking* about leaving, so the prospect of recession triggered by a leave and the uncertainty period of the 2 year messy pullout from the EU sounds very plausible.

Phil_aka_Pip

ICBM said:

If the yoof are more likely to vote In, why would that be?

because they've been brought up with the EU and can't conceive of life outside it?

because they're not old enough or wise enough to know any better?

tbh I don't know for sure but from what I've heard of them being interviewed on R4, the above are two possible explanations

UnclePsychosis

@hugbot indeed. incredible amounts of money has already been removed from UK markets in the last few months. I posted a link to a Telegraph article yesterday, here it is again.

£65bn removed from the UK or converted to other currencies in March and April

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/07/investors-pull-cash-out-of-uk-assets-at-fastest-pace-since-finan/

ICBM

Sambostar said:

ICBM said:

If the yoof are more likely to vote In, why would that be?

Because some of them are stupid, selfish, short sighted and pig ignorant?

Unlike all older voters who are intelligent, public-spirited, wise and well-educated, presumably…

Phil_aka_Pip said:

ICBM said:

If the yoof are more likely to vote In, why would that be?

because they've been brought up with the EU and can't conceive of life outside it?

because they're not old enough or wise enough to know any better?

tbh I don't know for sure but from what I've heard of them being interviewed on R4, the above are two possible explanations

Or because being young, they are more clued up with the media, more willing to do their own research, and not just believe what a bunch of self-serving politicians tell them?

Who knows.

But it is funny that the Leave campaign are crying foul, when it was them who have *actually* been fraudulently manipulating the voter registration, as posted by fretmeister. In case you missed it -

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2016/06/vote-leave-quietly-delete-its-fake-register-to-vote-page-after-being-exposed/

And they haven't even lost yet.

Fortheloveofguitar

The youth will vote for whatever view their favourite reality tv star has expressed via their Facebook or Twitter news feed on the morning of June 23rd

For a certain percentage of complete fucking morons, this is what it's come down to

littlegreenman

ToneControl said:

littlegreenman said:

ToneControl said:

littlegreenman said:

ToneControl said:

I wonder if we remain, we might find ourselves in the same situation as West Germany after reunification - where 65m West Germans still pay an extra 5.5% income tax to help rebuild (the much smaller - only 12.5m people) East Germany. So far they have paid more than 2000 billion Euros.

What if we were compelled by voters in poor, bankrupt South and Eastern Europe to pay an extra 10% income tax permanently, to pay to bring their countries up to UK standards - How many of us would be happy to do that? Turkey is on the list for inclusion soon - that is a country with a large population than the UK, and huge poverty

As far as I'm aware, Turkey has a long way to go before even being considered for inclusion. And that's ahead of even one member state veto'ing it, and I'm guessing at least one will. Ergo, no deal.

At least, that's how I'm reading the lay of the land. If I'm wrong, feel free to edumacate me.

Even if it's 10 years or 20, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35832035

can I return you to my main point - are you happy to leave the UK (e.g. my kids) to potentially be hammered with long-term taxes to upgrade countries over 1000 miles away?

Even if you disregard the veto, which from the article you posted seems like Holland would also use, there's the small matter of all the chapters that Turkey has yet to adhere to. 1 out of 37, in the decades they've been trying to get in.

If, in 10-20 years time they can prove they've built a stable economy, with equitable human rights, and can contribute to the EU on an equal footing whilst keeping the Syrian border secure then why not? Obvs, never going to happen.

and you're confident that the Germans won't bend the rules now to "solve" the non-EU migrant crisis?

They fiddled Greece's entry to the Euro - and that was far less of a crisis

They can't do it unilaterally. One member state veto = no.

ToneControl said:

I'll ask this again - to separate it from Turkey talk:

I wonder if we remain, we might find ourselves in the same situation as West Germany after reunification - where 65m West Germans still pay an extra 5.5% income tax to help rebuild (the much smaller - only 12.5m people) East Germany. So far they have paid more than 2000 billion Euros.

What if we were compelled by voters in poor, bankrupt South and Eastern Europe to pay an extra 10% income tax permanently, to pay to bring their countries up to UK standards - How many of us would be happy to do that? 

So Turkey isn't an issue after all?

And I have to say that's one hell of a big "what if?"

jpttaylor

Apparently Leave are convinced that the registration page was deliberately crashed last night, citing the unusually high amount of traffic on the website. God forbid that democracy should actually be enacted in "the world's oldest democracy."

Fretwired

jpttaylor said:

Apparently Leave are convinced that the registration page was deliberately crashed last night, citing the unusually high amount of traffic on the website. God forbid that democracy should actually be enacted in "the world's oldest democracy."

Why? If after months and months of public money thrown at educating and encouraging people to register to vote you leave it to the last five minutes, and then find the website's busy and crashes I'd say you're to stupid to get a vote. What is it with people in this country? Bet they wouldn't do it booking their summer holiday in the sun.

Fretwired

This is a key area the Remain/Leave vote should be about ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/08/britains-defiant-judges-fight-back-against-europes-imperial-cour/

ToneControl

littlegreenman said:

ToneControl said:

littlegreenman said:

ToneControl said:

littlegreenman said:

ToneControl said:

I wonder if we remain, we might find ourselves in the same situation as West Germany after reunification - where 65m West Germans still pay an extra 5.5% income tax to help rebuild (the much smaller - only 12.5m people) East Germany. So far they have paid more than 2000 billion Euros.

What if we were compelled by voters in poor, bankrupt South and Eastern Europe to pay an extra 10% income tax permanently, to pay to bring their countries up to UK standards - How many of us would be happy to do that? Turkey is on the list for inclusion soon - that is a country with a large population than the UK, and huge poverty

As far as I'm aware, Turkey has a long way to go before even being considered for inclusion. And that's ahead of even one member state veto'ing it, and I'm guessing at least one will. Ergo, no deal.

At least, that's how I'm reading the lay of the land. If I'm wrong, feel free to edumacate me.

Even if it's 10 years or 20, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35832035

can I return you to my main point - are you happy to leave the UK (e.g. my kids) to potentially be hammered with long-term taxes to upgrade countries over 1000 miles away?

Even if you disregard the veto, which from the article you posted seems like Holland would also use, there's the small matter of all the chapters that Turkey has yet to adhere to. 1 out of 37, in the decades they've been trying to get in.

If, in 10-20 years time they can prove they've built a stable economy, with equitable human rights, and can contribute to the EU on an equal footing whilst keeping the Syrian border secure then why not? Obvs, never going to happen.

and you're confident that the Germans won't bend the rules now to "solve" the non-EU migrant crisis?

They fiddled Greece's entry to the Euro - and that was far less of a crisis

They can't do it unilaterally. One member state veto = no.

ToneControl said:

I'll ask this again - to separate it from Turkey talk:

I wonder if we remain, we might find ourselves in the same situation as West Germany after reunification - where 65m West Germans still pay an extra 5.5% income tax to help rebuild (the much smaller - only 12.5m people) East Germany. So far they have paid more than 2000 billion Euros.

What if we were compelled by voters in poor, bankrupt South and Eastern Europe to pay an extra 10% income tax permanently, to pay to bring their countries up to UK standards - How many of us would be happy to do that? 

So Turkey isn't an issue after all?

And I have to say that's one hell of a big "what if?"

Turkey is an issue.

It's also an example of an even poorer and more different country than the other in the EU

My question is - are you happy to pay an extra 5% or 10% tax for 30 years to pay to upgrade Greece, the A8 (Eastern Europe), Spain, Portugal, etc?

ToneControl

Phil_aka_Pip said:

ICBM said:

If the yoof are more likely to vote In, why would that be?

because they've been brought up with the EU and can't conceive of life outside it?

because they're not old enough or wise enough to know any better?

tbh I don't know for sure but from what I've heard of them being interviewed on R4, the above are two possible explanations

Because they have been told that the EU brought them freedom and justice

As I understand, holiday or business travel to other parts of Europe were not possible before the EU 

Also the EU invented free wifi, or sponsored it, or something

Drew_TNBD

I hate uncle psychosis