EU Referendum Vote - Poll

Sambostar

The ones I've heard interviewed have no brain cells and fancy their chances of emigrating into the EU after getting a top class education in the UK.  Most others I talk to, that aren't of the BBC Question Time dive head format, or aren't so stupid to think that holidays out of the UK will be banned after we leave the EU, all want out, including the young Poles.

ToneControl

Fretwired said:

This is a key area the Remain/Leave vote should be about ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/08/britains-defiant-judges-fight-back-against-europes-imperial-cour/

so the EU court blocked the sharing of terrorism-related intelligence data with the USA?

that must be part of why we are safer in the EU??

and I am disgusted if it's true that the ECJ

"suggested that the ECJ had the power to forbid a minister from introducing a bill in the Commons."

ToneControl

Sambostar said:

The ones I've heard interviewed have no brain cells and fancy their chances of emigrating into the EU after getting a top class education in the UK.  Most others I talk to, that aren't of the BBC Question Time dive head format, or aren't so stupid to think that holidays out of the UK will be banned after we leave the EU, all want out, including the young Poles.

my Polish builders want everyone to vote leave. I assume they have some insight into the EU outside the UK?

UnclePsychosis

ToneControl said:

littlegreenman said:

ToneControl said:

littlegreenman said:

ToneControl said:

littlegreenman said:

ToneControl said:

I wonder if we remain, we might find ourselves in the same situation as West Germany after reunification - where 65m West Germans still pay an extra 5.5% income tax to help rebuild (the much smaller - only 12.5m people) East Germany. So far they have paid more than 2000 billion Euros.

What if we were compelled by voters in poor, bankrupt South and Eastern Europe to pay an extra 10% income tax permanently, to pay to bring their countries up to UK standards - How many of us would be happy to do that? Turkey is on the list for inclusion soon - that is a country with a large population than the UK, and huge poverty

As far as I'm aware, Turkey has a long way to go before even being considered for inclusion. And that's ahead of even one member state veto'ing it, and I'm guessing at least one will. Ergo, no deal.

At least, that's how I'm reading the lay of the land. If I'm wrong, feel free to edumacate me.

Even if it's 10 years or 20, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35832035

can I return you to my main point - are you happy to leave the UK (e.g. my kids) to potentially be hammered with long-term taxes to upgrade countries over 1000 miles away?

Even if you disregard the veto, which from the article you posted seems like Holland would also use, there's the small matter of all the chapters that Turkey has yet to adhere to. 1 out of 37, in the decades they've been trying to get in.

If, in 10-20 years time they can prove they've built a stable economy, with equitable human rights, and can contribute to the EU on an equal footing whilst keeping the Syrian border secure then why not? Obvs, never going to happen.

and you're confident that the Germans won't bend the rules now to "solve" the non-EU migrant crisis?

They fiddled Greece's entry to the Euro - and that was far less of a crisis

They can't do it unilaterally. One member state veto = no.

ToneControl said:

I'll ask this again - to separate it from Turkey talk:

I wonder if we remain, we might find ourselves in the same situation as West Germany after reunification - where 65m West Germans still pay an extra 5.5% income tax to help rebuild (the much smaller - only 12.5m people) East Germany. So far they have paid more than 2000 billion Euros.

What if we were compelled by voters in poor, bankrupt South and Eastern Europe to pay an extra 10% income tax permanently, to pay to bring their countries up to UK standards - How many of us would be happy to do that? 

So Turkey isn't an issue after all?

And I have to say that's one hell of a big "what if?"

Turkey is an issue.

It's also an example of an even poorer and more different country than the other in the EU

My question is - are you happy to pay an extra 5% or 10% tax for 30 years to pay to upgrade Greece, the A8 (Eastern Europe), Spain, Portugal, etc?

I'll answer your question if you'll answer mine: Would you be happy to pay an extra 20% tax for the next 37.4 years to pay for Nigel Farage's Moon Base? 

Bidley

ICBM said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

ICBM said:

If the yoof are more likely to vote In, why would that be?

because they've been brought up with the EU and can't conceive of life outside it?

because they're not old enough or wise enough to know any better?

tbh I don't know for sure but from what I've heard of them being interviewed on R4, the above are two possible explanations

Or because being young, they are more clued up with the media, more willing to do their own research, and not just believe what a bunch of self-serving politicians tell them?

Are you talking about Leave or Remain?

Having done plenty of research myself, and firmly erring towards leave, you could say the same for both. I'm also 30.

All the people I have on my friends list on FB between 18-30 post dumb memes about how people voting leave are racist, and we'll all die in a pool of decay and famine if we leave.

I don't think there's any foul play with extending the registration period (although it's unprecedented I think? I don't know the facts), but if you're a young person, who doesn't give a shit about politics (and I didn't until a couple of years ago), you're going to vote remain because it seems like nothing will change, and that nice Mr Cameron says that's what we should do.

UnclePsychosis

Bidley said:
I don't think there's any foul play with extending the registration period (although it's unprecedented I think? I don't know the facts), but if you're a young person, who doesn't give a shit about politics (and I didn't until a couple of years ago), you're going to vote remain because it seems like nothing will change, and that nice Mr Cameron says that's what we should do.
<br>Do you think that Conservative Prime Minister David Cameron is popular with young people who aren't that interested in politics? Really? 

ToneControl

UnclePsychosis said:

ToneControl said:

littlegreenman said:

They can't do it unilaterally. One member state veto = no.

ToneControl said:

I'll ask this again - to separate it from Turkey talk:

I wonder if we remain, we might find ourselves in the same situation as West Germany after reunification - where 65m West Germans still pay an extra 5.5% income tax to help rebuild (the much smaller - only 12.5m people) East Germany. So far they have paid more than 2000 billion Euros.

What if we were compelled by voters in poor, bankrupt South and Eastern Europe to pay an extra 10% income tax permanently, to pay to bring their countries up to UK standards - How many of us would be happy to do that? 

So Turkey isn't an issue after all?

And I have to say that's one hell of a big "what if?"

Turkey is an issue.

It's also an example of an even poorer and more different country than the other in the EU

My question is - are you happy to pay an extra 5% or 10% tax for 30 years to pay to upgrade Greece, the A8 (Eastern Europe), Spain, Portugal, etc?

I'll answer your question if you'll answer mine: Would you be happy to pay an extra 20% tax for the next 37.4 years to pay for Nigel Farage's Moon Base? 

so you think it's a fanciful, unlikely situation?

I'll try to explain in bullet points, if you are having trouble making the connection:

• The EU currently sends E5b to Greece per year plus the bail outs
  
• Greece will need more bailouts. 
  
• If the Euro is to be viable in the long-term, the EU will require political and economic union
  
• After political and economic union, the richer states would need to fund upgrades to the poorer states, e.g. Greece (to avoid depopulation and FURTHER economic collapse) 
  
• No one in the UK was asked to vote on whether they were happy to be taxed to pay for the construction of Greece v2.0 

Is any of this not obvious?

Sambostar

Regarding the young, it's generation nanny state.  I genuinely think some kids believe that unless we stay in the EU they will be put out for sale in street markets.  With freedom and rights comes risk and responsibility.  I guess that they basically don't want responsibility because they've never known it and are probably worried about properly grafting for a living, although the irony is that some already do and will have no less freedom if we leave the EU.

Clarky

Fretwired said:

This is a key area the Remain/Leave vote should be about ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/08/britains-defiant-judges-fight-back-against-europes-imperial-cour/

that's pretty scary

ToneControl

Amazingly, the French now want to be in the EU even less than us:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/07/france-shuns-europe-as-brexit-revolt-spreads/

ToneControl

The Telelgraph has packaged up some of the myth-busting conclusions from Full fact

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/28/eu-referendum-fact-checking-the-big-claims/

Note that the Osborne's predictions for GDP dropping are way way lower than any other source, many of whom predict a max/min range running positive or negative

ICBM

Bidley said:

ICBM said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

ICBM said:

If the yoof are more likely to vote In, why would that be?

because they've been brought up with the EU and can't conceive of life outside it?

because they're not old enough or wise enough to know any better?

tbh I don't know for sure but from what I've heard of them being interviewed on R4, the above are two possible explanations

Or because being young, they are more clued up with the media, more willing to do their own research, and not just believe what a bunch of self-serving politicians tell them?

Are you talking about Leave or Remain?

Having done plenty of research myself, and firmly erring towards leave, you could say the same for both. I'm also 30.

That's exactly what I mean. You're going to vote Leave. Some other young people might vote Remain.

So why the cries of foul about the government extending the registration deadline? Even assuming it's true that all the extra voters will be young people - what's the evidence for that either?

Or is it that the Leave campaign are scared that by including more people, they might lose? If so, why?

ToneControl said:

Amazingly, the French now want to be in the EU even less than us:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/07/france-shuns-europe-as-brexit-revolt-spreads/

So how does this fit with the whole population of Europe being in favour of 'ever closer union', and it's an inevitable consequence of staying in?

Fretwired said:

This is a key area the Remain/Leave vote should be about … 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/08/britains-defiant-judges-fight-back-against-europes-imperial-cour/

Exactly.

We are not alone in not wanting the sort of superstate we're being scaremongered about, and it's not going to happen. The Germans won't accept it either.

ToneControl

ICBM said:

ToneControl said:

Amazingly, the French now want to be in the EU even less than us:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/07/france-shuns-europe-as-brexit-revolt-spreads/

So how does this fit with the whole population of Europe being in favour of 'ever closer union', and it's an inevitable consequence of staying in?

the ruling classes are the ones wanting the USE

Can I remind you that the only time the UK people were asked was in 1975, over forty years ago?

Our political elites believe they "know better" than the public, hence the "democratic deficit" clearly visible between politician-support for the EU vs public-support for the EU

Whilst many accept the elite ruling out capital punishment against the wishes of the people, I can't see why they should be allowed to overrule the public on this one.

Unsurprisingly, the Greek public seem to want out of the EU by a massive majority = 71% "unfavourable view of EU"

61% for the French

ToneControl

ICBM said:

Bidley said:

ICBM said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

ICBM said:

If the yoof are more likely to vote In, why would that be?

because they've been brought up with the EU and can't conceive of life outside it?

because they're not old enough or wise enough to know any better?

tbh I don't know for sure but from what I've heard of them being interviewed on R4, the above are two possible explanations

Or because being young, they are more clued up with the media, more willing to do their own research, and not just believe what a bunch of self-serving politicians tell them?

Are you talking about Leave or Remain?

Having done plenty of research myself, and firmly erring towards leave, you could say the same for both. I'm also 30.

That's exactly what I mean. You're going to vote Leave. Some other young people might vote Remain.

So why the cries of foul about the government extending the registration deadline? Even assuming it's true that all the extra voters will be young people - what's the evidence for that either?

Or is it that the Leave campaign are scared that by including more people, they might lose? If so, why?

you're being intentionally naive here I assume? With tongue in cheek?

The govt has made the decision to extend polling by 2 days in response to system problems lasting 1.5 hours

The govt supports remain

The data shows younger people mostly vote remain

the data shows younger people have left it later to register

duh

chillidoggy

If those countries that are members of the Euro reverted back to their original currencies, I wonder if they'd be able to dig themselves out of the shit they're in right now. I'm thinking Greece, Italy etc.

ICBM

ToneControl said:

the ruling classes are the ones wanting the USE

Can I remind you that the only time the UK people were asked was in 1975, over forty years ago?

Our political elites believe they "know better" than the public, hence the "democratic deficit" clearly visible between politician-support for the EU vs public-support for the EU

It still means that what I said about twenty pages ago that the populations of any of the states - including France and Germany - not accepting a United States Of Europe is very likely to be true, and hence the claim that it's inevitable and will happen quite soon is nonsense. When it really comes to it the politicians won't be able to push it through either.

ToneControl said:

Unsurprisingly, the Greek public seem to want out of the EU by a massive majority = 71% "unfavourable view of EU"

61% for the French

An unfavourable view of the EU is not the same thing as wanting to leave it.

ToneControl said:

you're being intentionally naive here I assume? With tongue in cheek?

I'm asking you to provide the actual logical reason you think that later-registering voters are more likely to vote Remain, and hence support the idea that this is government conspiracy and not an IT screw-up.

And for the reason that preventing more people from voting is a bad thing - unless you think that you're likely to lose as a result. In which case why? Surely if you think there is a genuine majority for Leave, getting more people to vote will only increase that?

Or are you in fact scared that most Leave voters are the ones who are most motivated, shout the loudest and hence have already registered? And that in fact you want to impose a Leave decision on the larger number of people who are in fact quite happy with the status quo and have only now realised that there is a serious danger of the UK's international standing being hijacked by a vociferous minority - albeit a large one?

Because if that isn't true, surely you want *everyone* to vote?

Modulus_Amps

@chillidoggy said:

If those countries that are members of the Euro reverted back to their original currencies, I wonder if they'd be able to dig themselves out of the shit they're in right now. I'm thinking Greece, Italy etc.

No chance, besides being in such a big hole they would need to be able to change legislation to allow business to re-establish and grow, only way that happens if they can restrict cheaper product coming into the country and the only way that happens if they leave the EU.

UnclePsychosis

@icbm - absolutely spot on. The only reason to be angry about more people being allowed to vote is because you're not interested in democracy.

Seriously, imagine being pathetic enough to be angry about attempting to maximise turnout.

ToneControl

chillidoggy said:

If those countries that are members of the Euro reverted back to their original currencies, I wonder if they'd be able to dig themselves out of the shit they're in right now. I'm thinking Greece, Italy etc.

It would be easier, since they could devalue their currencies

ToneControl

ICBM said:

ToneControl said:

you're being intentionally naive here I assume? With tongue in cheek?

I'm asking you to provide the actual logical reason you think that later-registering voters are more likely to vote Remain, and hence support the idea that this is government conspiracy and not an IT screw-up.

And for the reason that preventing more people from voting is a bad thing - unless you think that you're likely to lose as a result. In which case why? Surely if you think there is a genuine majority for Leave, getting more people to vote will only increase that?

Or are you in fact scared that most Leave voters are the ones who are most motivated, shout the loudest and hence have already registered? And that in fact you want to impose a Leave decision on the larger number of people who are in fact quite happy with the status quo and have only now realised that there is a serious danger of the UK's international standing being hijacked by a vociferous minority - albeit a large one?

Because if that isn't true, surely you want *everyone* to vote?

of course I don't want everyone to vote, just ones who want Brexit, 

I'm saying that it's immoral and possibly illegal to change voting registration rules at the last minute

I'm saying that if polls indicated that the "leave" supporters were late to register, that no extension would have been given

& I'm saying  that extending it by 2 days when the "IT glitch" was for less than 2 hours is disproportionate