So, 4 days on, were Remain scaremongering or not?

Nitefly

Bucket said:

paulmapp8306 said:

errr yes.  If they had all voted and lost then no.  Should have got off their arses away from their PS4s and X Box's and voted.

Excuse me. I voted (to remain), the majority of my friends voted (to remain), we're pissed off about the result.

I don't understand why only 38% of people my age turned up either. But really, that kind of stereotyping helps precisely no-one.

Yes, it's annoying when people generalise about you, isn't it?   

I share your pain, @Bucket.  What I do know, from experience, is that life will go on, possibly not in ways we expect.

hungrymark

Nitefly;1131864" said:

Bucket said:



paulmapp8306 said:errr yes.  If they had all voted and lost then no.  Should have got off their arses away from their PS4s and X Box's and voted.





Excuse me. I voted (to remain), the majority of my friends voted (to remain), we're pissed off about the result.

I don't understand why only 38% of people my age turned up either. But really, that kind of stereotyping helps precisely no-one.





Yes, it's annoying when people generalise about you, isn't it?   



I share your pain, @Bucket.  What I do know, from experience, is that life will go on, possibly not in ways we expect.

Yeah, I don't get the 'they stole our futures' thing. Vote next time, then. And old people have every right to vote how they like, but it's not like they tended to vote leave purely to piss off the youngsters. Odd attitude.

Bucket

mellowsun said:

Indeed, and as per my comment on another thread, a large chunk of the migration figures are temporary international students

Yup, like about half my mates from uni. What's gonna happen to them?

No-one seems to have an answer, least of all them. They don't feel very welcome here any more.

John_P

Surely they continue their studies and then decide to stay or return to their country. if by that point the immigration rules have changed then they apply to stay here if that's what is necessary, the only change I can see is that it will be the same rule regardless of the home country.

littlegreenman

Bucket said:

mellowsun said:

Indeed, and as per my comment on another thread, a large chunk of the migration figures are temporary international students

Yup, like about half my mates from uni. What's gonna happen to them?

No-one seems to have an answer, least of all them. They don't feel very welcome here any more.

They "should" be able to complete their studies just like non EU students under Tier 4 (Student) Visas, if it came to that before the end of their studies. After that? Who knows?

skankdelvar

Bucket said:

Yup, like about half my mates from uni. What's gonna happen to them?

Based on my experience they will complete their studies, get their degrees and fuck off either to London or back to their home towns / countries and you'll never hear from them again apart from the one you didn't like very much anyway and you never shake him off and the bastard's still sending you Christmas cards nearly 40 years later even though you're ex-directory and have a vestigial digital footprint.

ToneControl

skankdelvar said:

Fatfingers said:

I've never had a problem with immigrants. People who are willing to drag themselves and their families across continents in search of a better life, are, by their very nature, highly motivated people. We have high employment in the UK (although that will almost certainly now change as a result of this clusterfuck of idiocy). I don't know whether I'd have the get up and go to leave my country and make a life elsewhere (and I probably won't have the chance to find out, if free movement stops) but I applaud those that do it. I find the whole immigration debate highly worrying. I don't want to live in a country where people are so suspicious of people who aren't like them.

If you'd like to go and live and work in an EU country after Brexit there will be very little to stop you. Get a certificate of residence (as you would have to even as an EU citizen) and then a work permit. You will then find yourself living alongside a wide range of other non-EU nationals who are there perfectly legally. 

Even as an EU citizen the biggest impediment to getting a job in another EU country is (i) the requirement to speak the language and (ii) convincing the employer why he should hire a foreigner rather than a local. This is why most of the Brits in France run gites or property websites - they can't get a full-time job.

As for xenophobia; you'll find that deplorable tendency all across Europe. It's been my experience that there's obvious and widespread racism almost everywhere except - perhaps - those Benelux countries when they're not wanting to fragment into different language groups or publish anti-Muslim cartoons. For example: How may refugee centres or hostels were attacked (burned down, grenade through the window) in the UK in 2015? None. In Germany? Over a thousand.

In truth, the UK was, is and will be far more welcoming of foreigners than many other parts of Europe. Nothing has changed in this respect except that some people think worse of their fellow citizens than they did last week because they don't share their politics.

Don't worry; be happy where you are :-)

UK people do not, as a rule, find jobs in the EU. It's wishful thinking that we could survive there.

we don't know any languages, and we have a good welfare state here - why would anyone move?

The other way round - everyone now speaks English and has seen plenty of Uk and US TV

There are more French people in London than there are working Brits in the entire EU

Almost all the Brits in the EU are pensioners in Spain, who are all paid for by themselves and the UK taxpayer

Limehouse_Blues

paulmapp8306 said:

octatonic said:

Paul, what do you understand 'the free movement of people' to be?

I may be wrong

You are wrong. It's sad that so many voted based on misconceptions and half truths. The EU is far from perfect but it never got a fair hearing in the UK media. There were many things that were perfectly within the UK's gift to fix the dynamic that vexes you. E.g. Get rid of universal benefits and move to a contributions based system. If EU migrants can't support themselves on the same terms as locals they can be kicked out. Where you have a benefits system like the UK's that's pretty easy. Answer? Leave the EU? Or maybe just fix the UK benefits system.... What did the EU ever do for us? Well, people are about to find out. It is going to take years to play out and for the UK economy it will not be pretty at all. Market volatility over the next few days means nothing. It is a mere prelude to far more significant and negative economic and political fallout. Consider the amount of detailed scrutiny Heathrow's third runway has had and compare it with this referendum. It makes me ashamed of my country this willful act of self destruction. The whole thing has been a farce.

holnrew

If benefits were based on contributions I'd be dead and suspect many others would be too, especially the young.

I also take issue with people saying migrants take jobs British people can't be "bothered" to do. When you're long term unemployed no company wants to take a risk on you. There should be more support to get people experience, and allow and find those on benefits education. There's not enough carrot and too much stick and a lot of short sightedness with unemployment benefits.

capo4th

It does make me laugh how so many leave voters are now realising how much funding their local area received from the EU and are now wanting guarantees ! 

You muppets should have looked into this before you voted.

Can someone remind me again how we were going to take back control of our borders ?

Limehouse_Blues

holnrew said:

If benefits were based on contributions I'd be dead and suspect many others would be too, especially the young.

I also take issue with people saying migrants take jobs British people can't be "bothered" to do. When you're long term unemployed no company wants to take a risk on you. There should be more support to get people experience, and allow and find those on benefits education. There's not enough carrot and too much stick and a lot of short sightedness with unemployment benefits.

Facetiousness is not going to carry anyone very far in this new world. The UK could have reformed its benefits system in ways that would address your concerns without leaving the EU. The chancellor's putative 'recovery' was built on sand but it hardly matters now anyway. The economy, and tax take, is going to be hit massively. As ever, the poorest will suffer the most. Just the opportunity cost of so much political energy been thrown into withdrawal and separation for the next several years is a body blow. Nobody will be talking new trade terms until 2019 at the earliest. (We have to leave first). In the meantime, will anyone be rushing to make new investments? I can't get over South Wales. What were the people of Port Talbot who voted Brexit thinking? Chances are the country I was born in won't even exist in 10 years time. I could weep.

paulmapp8306

Limehouse_Blues said:

paulmapp8306 said:

octatonic said:

Paul, what do you understand 'the free movement of people' to be?

I may be wrong

You are wrong. It's sad that so many voted based on misconceptions and half truths. The EU is far from perfect but it never got a fair hearing in the UK media. There were many things that were perfectly within the UK's gift to fix the dynamic that vexes you. E.g. Get rid of universal benefits and move to a contributions based system. If EU migrants can't support themselves on the same terms as locals they can be kicked out. Where you have a benefits system like the UK's that's pretty easy. Answer? Leave the EU? Or maybe just fix the UK benefits system.... What did the EU ever do for us? Well, people are about to find out. It is going to take years to play out and for the UK economy it will not be pretty at all. Market volatility over the next few days means nothing. It is a mere prelude to far more significant and negative economic and political fallout. Consider the amount of detailed scrutiny Heathrow's third runway has had and compare it with this referendum. It makes me ashamed of my country this willful act of self destruction. The whole thing has been a farce.

Wrong in what - my understanding of free movement?  if so - fine, enlighten me.  That post didnt say why I had it wrong.

Reforming the benefits system as you suggest if never going to happen.  If anything it does the other way.

Aside from free movement - the other Issue I voted on was continued further political integration with Europe.  Thats not going to stop.  The financial and economic reason I dont really care about.

In basic terms (just basic ones) I personally say 3 main arguments:

1.  Free movement of people - not going to change in the EU

2.  Political integration - not going to change in the EU

3.  Economic/trade - short term hit, but money always finds a way long term.

Weighing those 3 issues up - no brainer for me.  Ride the storm, and reap the rewards long term.  It may not turn out like that of course, but nobody can do more than guess.

exocet

paulmapp8306 said:

Limehouse_Blues said:

paulmapp8306 said:

octatonic said:

Paul, what do you understand 'the free movement of people' to be?

I may be wrong

You are wrong. It's sad that so many voted based on misconceptions and half truths. The EU is far from perfect but it never got a fair hearing in the UK media. There were many things that were perfectly within the UK's gift to fix the dynamic that vexes you. E.g. Get rid of universal benefits and move to a contributions based system. If EU migrants can't support themselves on the same terms as locals they can be kicked out. Where you have a benefits system like the UK's that's pretty easy. Answer? Leave the EU? Or maybe just fix the UK benefits system.... What did the EU ever do for us? Well, people are about to find out. It is going to take years to play out and for the UK economy it will not be pretty at all. Market volatility over the next few days means nothing. It is a mere prelude to far more significant and negative economic and political fallout. Consider the amount of detailed scrutiny Heathrow's third runway has had and compare it with this referendum. It makes me ashamed of my country this willful act of self destruction. The whole thing has been a farce.

Wrong in what - my understanding of free movement?  if so - fine, enlighten me.  That post didnt say why I had it wrong.

Reforming the benefits system as you suggest if never going to happen.  If anything it does the other way.

Aside from free movement - the other Issue I voted on was continued further political integration with Europe.  Thats not going to stop.  The financial and economic reason I dont really care about.

In basic terms (just basic ones) I personally say 3 main arguments:

1.  Free movement of people - not going to change in the EU

2.  Political integration - not going to change in the EU

3.  Economic/trade - short term hit, but money always finds a way long term.

Weighing those 3 issues up - no brainer for me.  Ride the storm, and reap the rewards long term.  It may not turn out like that of course, but nobody can do more than guess.

One of the few things that Cameron managed with his last round of negotiations was a opt out on UK participation in further EU integration

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105

paulmapp8306

Not necessarily for us though - if we are in the EU and the rest forge greater political integration, there is a knock on for us regardless of if that applies or not.  WE may at some future point be forces into things as the rest of the EU is politically one.

I was not happy being part of an entity that as a whole is seeking political integration.  Ultimately possibly a single political beast.  WE would be marginalised on the outside of such a beast, and would have to leave anyway.  The quicker out the better.

Not necessarily how it will play out - but my beliefs.

octatonic

Paul, are you familiar with the Dunning-Kruger Effect?

paulmapp8306

Yes, but I know my limits - I started the topic to get some info on an area I dont know much about (ie my limits on the subject are low) - then got slated for it (and for making choices based on lack of understanding - when I openly said I didnt base choices on this matter), and probably took offense at something I maybe shouldnt have done.

I have learned some stuff from the thread, which is good - but the attitude to those who dont know, by those who do but think everyone should got to me a little - intended or otherwise.

Ive calmed down a little (playing my Suhr )- though I do tend to dig holes even bigger when I get wound up.

Handsome_Chris

octatonic said:

Paul, are you familiar with the Dunning-Kruger Effect?

That's the thing off Bladerunner which can tell if you're a robot or not?

octatonic

paulmapp8306 said:

Yes, but I know my limits - I started the topic to get some info on an area I dont know much about (ie my limits on the subject are low) - then got slated for it (and for making choices based on lack of understanding - when I openly said I didnt base choices on this matter), and probably took offense at something I maybe shouldnt have done.

I have learned some stuff from the thread, which is good - but the attitude to those who dont know, by those who do but think everyone should got to me a little - intended or otherwise.

Ive calmed down a little (playing my Suhr )- though I do tend to dig holes even bigger when I get wound up.

Please understand what I'm saying when I asked.

My point is that anyone who is sure about what is coming is simply blinded by their own ignorance.

Experts, and I mean people like Mark Carney, political analysts and others who do this stuff for a living, have said we are in uncharted territory.

Handsome_Chris

paulmapp8306 said:

Yes, but I know my limits - I started the topic to get some info on an area I dont know much about (ie my limits on the subject are low) - then got slated for it (and for making choices based on lack of understanding - when I openly said I didnt base choices on this matter), and probably took offense at something I maybe shouldnt have done.

I have learned some stuff from the thread, which is good - but the attitude to those who dont know, by those who do but think everyone should got to me a little - intended or otherwise.

Ive calmed down a little (playing my Suhr )- though I do tend to dig holes even bigger when I get wound up.

Don't sweat it @paulmapp8306.  I have seen some shocking amounts of intolerance on here which goes by unnoticed.  Just let it slip, it's the nature of the beast.

thomasross20

Sweet Jesus.... Carney the clown is talking about printing even MORE money.