So, 4 days on, were Remain scaremongering or not?

paulmapp8306

Fatfingers said:

@KJDowd, didn't the racists always have a voice, just like anyone else who is eligible to vote?

Yes, but it had become a rather ashamed whisper. I fear now that a vocal minority feel they have a mandate to shout about these opinions and make the UK an uncomfortable place to live for some people.

Exactly this. Again, in the gym changing room last night, an older guy said to me that he'd voted to leave 'because the coloured family down the street have left a broken-down car outside his house for the last month.'

I must admit to being so naive I didn't even realise people used the term 'coloured" any more, let alone judged people by the colour of their skin. Later on, on the tele, there was a British born lad of Pakistani descent complaining about all the Poles moving into 'his area.'

You couldn't make it up.

I bet that "coloured " family weren't from (however many generations back) Europe either.

mellowsun

Now the regions that voted leave are wanting guarantees that their EU funding won't be cut.

It's tempting to say let them suffer along with the rest of the country, as they voted for this.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/politics/guarantees-wanted-over-the-future-of-european-millions-1-7982120

I live in Yorkshire. I run two small businesses here. I have a mortgage. I planned to move to a European country when I retire. I voted remain. 

Overnight, my financial stability, European citizenship and life plans have been ripped from me by a campaign that lied and cheated.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-cornwall-issues-plea-for-funding-protection-after-county-overwhelmingly-votes-in-favour-of-a7101311.html

I write a someone born in Redruth hospital and who spent their formative years in Falmouth. Cornwall has always proudly talked of itself as being a separate nation with its own language, flag and identity. The EU understood this and poured money into to build it up.

paulmapp8306

holnrew said:

I have as much issue as people willing to fuck over the poor and vulnerable in the "short term" for some sort of utopia the EU was somehow preventing that will never come to be, as I do racists.

My life is a shambles as it is, now I'm unlikely to have any kind of future. If more austerity is implemented and I get cuts to benefits I will be even more stressed and unable to ever work on my mental health and start working. There's only one way or of that miserable kind of existence.

Chin up mucka.  Whatever life throws at you, its never that bad.  Things have a way of sorting themselves out at some point.  I remember well being on benefits, in a damp bedsit, in a steel town being fucked (not as fucked as it is now mind)  in the 80s.  30 years down the line, life has been pretty decent over all - ups and downs, but not bleak by any means.  You'll get through it.

I will say, I dont think anybody has deliberately (fucked over the poor and vunerable) either.

Fatfingers

I also had a dream that I might retire somewhere a tad warmer. That's been blown out of the water too.

The only hope is that the majority of sensible people, whether on the remain or leave side, agree that unfettered access to the single market is a must-have. And the EU will only give us that if we accept free movement. As I've stated, I've never had a problem with immigration and believe it to be a complete red herring. 

I strongly suspect we'll end up with a deal that gives us access to the single market and retains freedom of movement - much like Norway. Of course, we'll still have to pay a similar amount as we now do and won't have a say in the law making process, but that was all explained before the vote, and a lot of people didn't buy it.

paulmapp8306

Its the free movement that is the issue.  europe wont deal without it, the UK cant deal with it (as thats arguably the biggest reason for the out vote).

I suspect the way will be to trade fit WTO rules - withy tariffs, as this would not require free movement of people.  If we agree to abide by EU regulations required in the form of H&S, Environment, responsible resourcing etc then the trade off is paying tarrifs to avoid free movement.  

That seems the ideal compromise to me.  Not sure the EU will agree.

Handsome_Chris

holnrew said:

I have as much issue as people willing to fuck over the poor and vulnerable in the "short term" for some sort of utopia the EU was somehow preventing that will never come to be, as I do racists.

My life is a shambles as it is, now I'm unlikely to have any kind of future. If more austerity is implemented and I get cuts to benefits I will be even more stressed and unable to ever work on my mental health and start working. There's only one way or of that miserable kind of existence.

@Holnrew, if you are saying that there is only one way out of your situation, please say that you are talking about joining the French Foreign Legion.  I got desperate and thought about it, although it turns out that they would not have taken me.

Snap

@^^

When I left University, I was out of work for a while. In a desperate attempt to get jobs as a security guard, I said I had spent the last few years in the Foreign Legion.

Funnily enough, I didn't get a security job.

Seemed a plausible route to take, at the time, to a daft 21 year old.

Handsome_Chris

Snap said:

@^^

When I left University, I was out of work for a while. In a desperate attempt to get jobs as a security guard, I said I had spent the last few years in the Foreign Legion.

Funnily enough, I didn't get a security job.

Seemed a plausible route to take, at the time, to a daft 21 year old.

That would have worked too, if the first contract you sign wasn't for 5 years, and the minimum recruitment age wasn't 17.5 years.

Nice try though.

MrBump

Fatfingers said:

clusterfuck of idiocy

Genius.

MrBump

exocet said:

I think that the issue here is that "trade" takes on many guises. Physical products are one thing - easy enough to sell anywhere, although the UK is spectacularly poor at doing this. They can be covered by existing WTO Tariffs.

The more important trade and the one that the UK is very good at is "services" - the main ones being financial and legal. Without access to the EU market for services, we are f****d. Basically we are saying goodbye to large parts of the City of London along with the huge revenues and profits that it brings. Some may say that that's not a bad thing and that as a country we should develop other facets of trade. Whilst not being a natural fan of the city, I appreciate what it does and can see that "we" are quite good at it.

Our trade in services outside of the EU may eventually grow to replace those about to be lost, however, there will be short to medium term consequences. Without a doubt we will see large financial and legal companies moving significant parts of their organisations to Dublin and Frankfurt. Call it Project Fear if you must, but it's reality.

This.  City of London access to European markets will without a doubt be contingent on freedom of movement.  If we don't have free access to those markets, there's no incentive for NYK, SGP or HGK to push business through London.  It'll go through Frankfurt.  And then we really will be fucked.

mgaw

Troy said:

I've seen first hand what the EU done to our fishing industry, practically destroyed it!

this really winds me up.......

several points need clarified

we have overfished

our own fisherman were quite happy to sell their quotas to foreign crews

the fishing industry is so small it shouldnt even be on the radar

if we dont stop fishing soon there will not be enough fish anyway

RaymondLin

We knew full well free movement of people is one of the founding principles of the entire creation. That is not news, that has been in place since day 1.

We also know full well we do and we need to trade with the EU.

So it does not take a genius to figure out that leaving or not, if you want to trade, you need to abide by those regulations.

Which is where I have been absolute gobsmack how some people think we can control our immigration by leaving. And why I say those who believes you could by leaving is ill informed.

mellowsun

RaymondLin said:

Which is where I have been absolute gobsmack how some people think we can control our immigration by leaving. And why I say those who believes you could by leaving is ill informed.

Indeed, and as per my comment on another thread, a large chunk of the migration figures are temporary international students, as we insist on including them in the total (unlike any other EU country).

Sporky

mellowsun said:

Indeed, and as per my comment on another thread, a large chunk of the migration figures are temporary international students, as we insist on including them in the total (unlike any other EU country).

Coming over here, funding our Universities...

mellowsun

Sporky said:

Coming over here, funding our Universities...

Yep, another thing we won't need to worry about in future. Who needs universities?

mgaw

amongst all this gnashing i wonder how many realise that over 300,000 folks came here from outwith the EU last year...that could have been easily controlled by the Government but they chose not to.

it couldnt be that we actually need immigration could it....call me old fashioned.... but if you have a sizable portion of your "working" population unwilling to accept any old job then would someone please explain to me how those positions are going to be filled.

a reply with some level of a realistic understanding of the quality of the "homegrown" labour force preferred

kjdowd

MrBump;1131737" said:

exocet said:






I think that the issue here is that "trade" takes on many guises. Physical products are one thing - easy enough to sell anywhere, although the UK is spectacularly poor at doing this. They can be covered by existing WTO Tariffs.



The more important trade and the one that the UK is very good at is "services" - the main ones being financial and legal. Without access to the EU market for services, we are f****d. Basically we are saying goodbye to large parts of the City of London along with the huge revenues and profits that it brings. Some may say that that's not a bad thing and that as a country we should develop other facets of trade. Whilst not being a natural fan of the city, I appreciate what it does and can see that "we" are quite good at it.



Our trade in services outside of the EU may eventually grow to replace those about to be lost, however, there will be short to medium term consequences. Without a doubt we will see large financial and legal companies moving significant parts of their organisations to Dublin and Frankfurt. Call it Project Fear if you must, but it's reality.





This.  City of London access to European markets will without a doubt be contingent on freedom of movement.  If we don't have free access to those markets, there's no incentive for NYK, SGP or HGK to push business through London.  It'll go through Frankfurt.  And then we really will be fucked.

MrBump;1131737" said:

exocet said:






I think that the issue here is that "trade" takes on many guises. Physical products are one thing - easy enough to sell anywhere, although the UK is spectacularly poor at doing this. They can be covered by existing WTO Tariffs.



The more important trade and the one that the UK is very good at is "services" - the main ones being financial and legal. Without access to the EU market for services, we are f****d. Basically we are saying goodbye to large parts of the City of London along with the huge revenues and profits that it brings. Some may say that that's not a bad thing and that as a country we should develop other facets of trade. Whilst not being a natural fan of the city, I appreciate what it does and can see that "we" are quite good at it.



Our trade in services outside of the EU may eventually grow to replace those about to be lost, however, there will be short to medium term consequences. Without a doubt we will see large financial and legal companies moving significant parts of their organisations to Dublin and Frankfurt. Call it Project Fear if you must, but it's reality.





This.  City of London access to European markets will without a doubt be contingent on freedom of movement.  If we don't have free access to those markets, there's no incentive for NYK, SGP or HGK to push business through London.  It'll go through Frankfurt.  And then we really will be fucked.

I don't think there's much doubt this will happen to a seriously damaging extent as it is. What financial business won't have on its 3-5 year plan to move at least part of their operation out of London? Why the hell should they wait it out on the whim of a leader we haven't even got? The risk is far too great and we've already proved we'll run off the edge of a cliff.

And - to preempt the obvious comment - no, I don't work in a bank. But when money and jobs leave the economy we all suffer.

paulmapp8306

mgaw said:

Troy said:

I've seen first hand what the EU done to our fishing industry, practically destroyed it!

this really winds me up.......

several points need clarified

we have overfished

our own fisherman were quite happy to sell their quotas to foreign crews

the fishing industry is so small it shouldnt even be on the radar

if we dont stop fishing soon there will not be enough fish anyway

How large does an industry have to be before its worth bothering about?

paulmapp8306

RaymondLin said:

We knew full well free movement of people is one of the founding principles of the entire creation. That is not news, that has been in place since day 1.

We also know full well we do and we need to trade with the EU.

So it does not take a genius to figure out that leaving or not, if you want to trade, you need to abide by those regulations.

Which is where I have been absolute gobsmack how some people think we can control our immigration by leaving. And why I say those who believes you could by leaving is ill informed.

The US do it - China does it - Japan does it.  Trading with the EU without accepting free movement is possible. Being part of the free market isnt.  The two are not the same - that much I have learned.

paulmapp8306

mellowsun said:

Sporky said:

Coming over here, funding our Universities...

Yep, another thing we won't need to worry about in future. Who needs universities?

About 1/4 of the people that use them............

Sorry coundnt resist.