Campaign lies, and consequences

digitalscream

With everything going on in the last week or so, I've been wondering...is the only electoral reform that's actually necessary the ability to implement real consequences for lying to the public in a political campaign?

Given that almost every single major claim the Leave campaign made has been demonstrated as false (looking at it objectively), it seems astonishing to me that there's absolutely no consequence for the people who made them. I mean...there's a clear difference between making promises that later turn out to be unfeasible and outright lying.

I'm guessing it's never been tested, but would it even be possible to sue BoJo et al for leading us down the garden path?

For example, could a bunch of businesses who've made concrete losses as a result do it? Taking it a step further...would criminal charges be possible?

If so, it'd probably make our politicians honest, at least.

Wishful thinking, I guess.

Sambostar

I'm a bit disgusted at the competance of our politcians seeing that no one had a plan, but then I don't really care because, like 52% of this country, I've arse all to lose.

Besides. wirrten from the same gospel, Agenda 21 always condoned population control. 

That has to be tangible at some point.

digitalscream

It's not so much that they didn't have a plan - not knowing how you're going to do something is one thing, but knowing that you actually can't do something but convincing everyone to vote for it anyway? That's got to be criminal. Given the potential consequences for the country, it's practically treason - so why the fuck can't we do anything about it?

JezWynd

But who's going to cast the first stone?

Sambostar

I don't think anyone needed any convincing, that is just the point.  It's the first true, out of constituency democracy we've had in 30 years, probablly why it surprised so many people.

JezWynd

Besides, Politics = lies and deceit. Everyone knows that.

digitalscream

JezWynd said:

Besides, Politics = lies and deceit. Everyone knows that.

That's the point I'm making. Perhaps the only thing that needs to change is that - forget all the stuff about proportional representation, campaign contributions etc. Just make them stick to what they honestly believe they can do, and it becomes possible for the public to trust them again.

Trust, I suspect, is going to be a very real problem in the next few years.

Fretwired

digitalscream said:

It's not so much that they didn't have a plan - not knowing how you're going to do something is one thing, but knowing that you actually can't do something but convincing everyone to vote for it anyway? That's got to be criminal. Given the potential consequences for the country, it's practically treason - so why the fuck can't we do anything about it?

Treason ... :-)

The debate is simple. Do you want to be in the EU or leave. If you stay there will be integration and at some point the UK will have to take the Euro. If we leave we can be free to do as we please.

There's no way you can predict the outcome of either course of action. People are just stupid .. they want the facts. Either option is a step into the unknown .. nobody knows whether the EU will survive, or what will happen to the UK if it leaves.

The politicians should have been honest and admitted this .. but the people wouldn't have been happy. They want facts .. there never were any facts .. it's like all relationships or decisions in life. Gut feel and a leap in the dark  and make the best of it ..

Look at the EU today .. bullying, threatening .. there will be consequences .. is this a club you want to be a member of? They can fuck off as far as I'm concerned.

Sambostar

Apart from the quality of our politicians, it's not really that bad though is it?  So long as we look out for one another, which won't happen for sure.

mellowsun

We're 5 days now since the result and Boris and Gove are still in hiding. Extraordinary for people who wanted to 'take control' and led the campaign for which they were victorious.

At least Farage is out there doing his usual clowning. But where the f**k are BoJo and Gove, apart from getting their bottoms smacked by their nannies?

Fretwired

mellowsun said:

We're 5 days now since the result and Boris and Gove are still in hiding. Extraordinary for people who wanted to 'take control' and led the campaign for which they were victorious.

At least Farage is out there doing his usual clowning. But where the f**k are BoJo and Gove, apart from getting their bottoms smacked by their nannies?

They're in no position to do anything constructive. In fairness Boris has says he is refraining from the ya boo sucks I've won crowing which I think is the right thing to do. Having Boris on the TV revelling in his win wouldn't help the situation and would only antagonise the EU further. He and Gove should keep their mouths shut and keep out of sight while the government chooses a new leader.

digitalscream

It's not about the EU referendum specifically (there are other threads for all that), but to use examples -

- Cutting immigration. They categorically knew they couldn't, but used it because it gets votes.

- The very tired £350 million -> NHS thing. They absolutely knew this couldn't happen, but they used it because it gets votes.

The point is that it's proven that they knew these things were lies, so...what can we do to stop that happening? Does anybody know of a legal case, anywhere in the world, where politicians were punished for it?

Fretwired

digitalscream said:

It's not about the EU referendum specifically (there are other threads for all that), but to use examples -

- Cutting immigration. They categorically knew they couldn't, but used it because it gets votes.

- The very tired £350 million -> NHS thing. They absolutely knew this couldn't happen, but they used it because it gets votes.

The point is that it's proven that they knew these things were lies, so...what can we do to stop that happening? Does anybody know of a legal case, anywhere in the world, where politicians were punished for it?

OK .. totally agree with you on the points above. I have said before that I think Cameron is serial liar .. Blair was no better ... perhaps a department that looked more closely at standards in public life and who says what might be the answer. Action could be taken against the likes of Cameron and claims that immigration could be reduce to 100,000 - they could be forced to apologise live on the BBC thus damaging their reputations which might deter others.

DanR

I couldn't see anything with a quick google, but lying politicians brings up loads of results.

So in theory the CPS will prosecute people or at least take them to trial if its in the public interest.

Now I would assume you would need to report that to the police for a file to be made.

I'm not sure how you would report it though.

You could try a civil suit, maybe on the basis you were misled into casting your vote.

DanR

In fact bringing up Blair didn't they try to get him based on dodgy info taking us to war.

So could you make the same case for taking us out of the EU?

Sambostar

I'm pretty sure everyone who voted out knew it would be a shambles within a year, let alone a few days.  Might not be good for the markets though eh bu hey ho.  The long haul and tye result being a decent accountable government is exactly why I voted out.  I didn't expect anything else to be honest.

Last night I had this weird dream that everyone was on a collage trip and for their finals had to do a naked march with their T shirts on and everybodies dick was smaller than mine, even though, trust me, mine is a small/medium, and they banned me because I told them I I just couldn't do a naked march without getting it up at seeing all the naked ladies,  but they just wouldn't listen, so they banned me anyway because I got a semi, all the while fretting about the march.

These things are so more important and introspective than politics.

Everyone is so quiite and wry to attrubute blame and get wrapped up in poliitics when all we really need is an ark.

Bucket

DanR said:

In fact bringing up Blair didn't they try to get him based on dodgy info taking us to war.

So could you make the same case for taking us out of the EU?

Maybe, if we can afford it after the economy buggers itself to all fuck, there might be an inquiry at some point.

Sambostar

@Bucket. ; What is an economy?

DanR

Sambostar;1130804" said:

@Bucket.  What is an economy?

Budget version of nomy?

professorben

As far as I'm concerned every single leave voter has potentially fucked my life up and as such you can all burn in what ever hell you believe in.

I firmly believe we are headed for mass unemployment, race riots, and depression the like of which the modern world has never seen.
I hope I'm wrong, it's a nice idea to consider legal action against the racist bigoted leavers, but honestly as I'm pretty sure most of the U.K. will be too busy foraging for scraps of food in a Mad Max style post apocalyptic future I doubt a robust legal system will top of the agenda.

Sambostar

professorben said:

I firmly believe we are headed for real life, where people have to step up to the plate and take responsibilty and no bullshit

Damn right brother.  I'm just glad that that the real world has conquered to be honest.