Campaign lies, and consequences

lloyd · June 2016

Fretwired;1131603" said:
lloyd said:

Fretwired said:

professorben said:

Fretwired;1131522" said:professorben said:

As far as I'm concerned every single leave voter has potentially fucked my life up and as such you can all burn in what ever hell you believe in.

@ professorben Care to explain why?

My partner is European, her residency is reliant on the free movement of people guarenteed by the EU.

Her reaction to the recent news of leaving, of the increase in abuse and racist attitudes towards Europeans is to consider going back home, closing down the business we both sweated blood to set up, taking my son with her.

Leaving me a choice to follow to a country I can't yet speak the language, qualified in an industry that is not regulated in the same way it is here, which, if I COULD get a job in, pays nowhere near what I earn here.

I am realistically hopeful I can get a manual labour job, paying the equivalent of their minimum wage, obviously I won't be able to claim any benefits, so I will to all intents be emasculated, which I imagine puts terrible strain on a relationship.

All for no good reason I can see, what was so bad? People had jobs that wanted them, economy was doing ok, we had prospects and futures.

Sorry to read that. I'd just sit tight as I don't think she'll have to go anywhere. I live in Hertfordshire and without a major influx of EU migrants firms would have gone bust. There's no way migrants will be thrown out of the country. My best guess of what will happen is:

1) The UK remains - Merkel (let's face it she runs the show) gives the UK a migrant cap as a sop and the next PM ignores the referendum.

2) We leave but have free trade deal which will include free movement with maybe a cap above.

An immigration cap would be symbolic. I think there are some people who think 75 million Turks are about to turn up. I think Trump converting to Islam would be more likely to happen.

Anyone who voted leave to reduce immigration will be sorely disappointed as I can't see it being reduced any time soon. I have a friend who is a director of a local recruitment agency - she has loads of jobs and no candidates. So guess what - she advertises in the EU.

The police need to get a handle on racist intimidation though. Make an example of a few of them.

I'm sure if he shows her this it'll put her mind at ease, jesus, come on.

WTF

Just trying to put a positive spin on things ... I'll just crawl back to my hole and wait for Armageddon.

While I think you're probably right in that no ones going to have to go anywhere, we don't actually know.

Easy to put a positive spin on things if you're born and bred here but not so for those that aren't. It's a very real worry.

It come across very blasé mate to be fair.

ICBM · June 2016

Troy said:
Anyway, the Remain campaign also lied and exaggerated the figures too!

The Remain campaign made some exaggerated predictions about bad things that might happen if we left. We don't actually know whether they're accurate or not yet - they may well be less exaggerated than you think. Or not.

The Leave campaign outright lied on several issues, some of which they were criticised for before the vote but insisted were true even though they knew they were not, and some of which they have now admitted were not true.

Not a subtle difference or one of scale.

Fretwired · June 2016

lloyd said:

Fretwired;1131603" said:
lloyd said:

Fretwired said:

professorben said:

Fretwired;1131522" said:professorben said:

As far as I'm concerned every single leave voter has potentially fucked my life up and as such you can all burn in what ever hell you believe in.

@ professorben Care to explain why?

My partner is European, her residency is reliant on the free movement of people guarenteed by the EU.

Her reaction to the recent news of leaving, of the increase in abuse and racist attitudes towards Europeans is to consider going back home, closing down the business we both sweated blood to set up, taking my son with her.

Leaving me a choice to follow to a country I can't yet speak the language, qualified in an industry that is not regulated in the same way it is here, which, if I COULD get a job in, pays nowhere near what I earn here.

I am realistically hopeful I can get a manual labour job, paying the equivalent of their minimum wage, obviously I won't be able to claim any benefits, so I will to all intents be emasculated, which I imagine puts terrible strain on a relationship.

All for no good reason I can see, what was so bad? People had jobs that wanted them, economy was doing ok, we had prospects and futures.

Sorry to read that. I'd just sit tight as I don't think she'll have to go anywhere. I live in Hertfordshire and without a major influx of EU migrants firms would have gone bust. There's no way migrants will be thrown out of the country. My best guess of what will happen is:

1) The UK remains - Merkel (let's face it she runs the show) gives the UK a migrant cap as a sop and the next PM ignores the referendum.

2) We leave but have free trade deal which will include free movement with maybe a cap above.

An immigration cap would be symbolic. I think there are some people who think 75 million Turks are about to turn up. I think Trump converting to Islam would be more likely to happen.

Anyone who voted leave to reduce immigration will be sorely disappointed as I can't see it being reduced any time soon. I have a friend who is a director of a local recruitment agency - she has loads of jobs and no candidates. So guess what - she advertises in the EU.

The police need to get a handle on racist intimidation though. Make an example of a few of them.

I'm sure if he shows her this it'll put her mind at ease, jesus, come on.

WTF

Just trying to put a positive spin on things ... I'll just crawl back to my hole and wait for Armageddon.
While I think you're probably right in that no ones going to have to go anywhere, we don't actually know.

Easy to put a positive spin on things if you're born and bred here but not so for those that aren't. It's a very real worry.

It come across very blasé mate to be fair.

Do you really think 3 million migrants will be asked to leave the UK when Cameron has said categorically that they won't. It would be too damaging to UK businesses and the UK's credibility in the world - we'd be labelled Nazis. And in Tory land house prices would crash - that's serious. It isn't going to happen.

People need to stop scaremongering and pedalling half truths and lies (not directed at you). And I'm married to an immigrant as well.

The best thing to do in my opinion is for moderate voices to speak up in support of migrants and tell those in charge what we want and drown out those spreading hate. It would help by not calling those who voted leave racists - it adds fuel to the fire.

And I'm pretty sure the fear factor is greater than the reality. I've scoured the web and can find stories, but no real facts - the police claim a few hundred more reports than usual. Let's not blow this out of proportion or make things worse by fuelling the climate of fear.

Feel free to blast me - I have a thick skin.

professorben · June 2016

hobbio;1131640" said:
professorben said:

hobbio;1131590" said:professorben said:

hobbio;1131521" said:Oh, fuck off! Blame, blame, blame! It's not one or two people that voted Leave, it was over half. I voted Leave, and I now regret it. Perhaps you could talk to the Remain campaigners and ask why they did fuck all except paint people like me as racist dumbasses.

If the hat fits.........

People voted for You Know Who after all!!!!

What does that even mean?

Short fellow, vegetarian allegedly, silly moustache.

Not Chaplin.

Did you just imply that I'm a Nazi? Because you're incredibly wrong, and fucking bang out of order. If we're going to stay in then the Remain voters will need a lot more people like me to change their minds and fucking insulting us isn't going to help. Also, voting to leave the EU is not the same as voting someone in to power on the back of a racist manifesto and Germany basically handed power to Hitler even though he didn't technically win.I'm sorry that you're in a shit situation with your family at the moment, I really am. A big part of what made me realise I was wrong was that I suddenly understood who I'd aligned myself with. There was the tiniest overlap between my politics and Farage's, and the racists (not all Leave voters are racist, but some are), and by voting Leave I'd basically thrown myself in with them. Apart from not wanting ever closer integration I have nothing in common with those people.Immigration is not something that troubles me, I have friends from the EU living in this country and I have British friends living in Spain, and Germany, and the Netherlands, and France.

I'm not calling you or any other Leave voter a Nazi, I do believe it's the thin end of the wedge, I do believe the country has now effectively legitimised hostility and racism towards foreigners.

But the whole leave standing, taking back control, restoring national pride, halting immigration.

Sound a lot like a bloody racist manifesto to me.

You voted the way you did, for whatever reasons you did, most will prob be unaffected by it all and wonder what the fuss was about, others have their lives turned upside down.
I know which one I am hoping I will be.

Fretwired · June 2016

professorben said:

But the whole leave standing, taking back control, restoring national pride, halting immigration.

Sound a lot like a bloody racist manifesto to me.

No one in the Leave campaign said they wanted to halt immigration - even Farage said we will need migrants going forward. At the moment we have no control over numbers or who comes in to the UK. Last year net migration was 330,000 - the size of a large city and is on course to be the same this year. The government hasn't helped as we need more infrastructure and a rebalancing of the economy to share the jobs around the country which would help. The UK is not the only country asking for change. Wanting to control immigration doesn't make you a racist.

And before attacking those that vote leave remember that Remain campaigner David Cameron was elected on a lie. He said he could reduce immigration to 100,000 people per annum. He had no power to do so.

hobbio · June 2016

professorben said:

I'm not calling you or any other Leave voter a Nazi, I do believe it's the thin end of the wedge, I do believe the country has now effectively legitimised hostility and racism towards foreigners.

But the whole leave standing, taking back control, restoring national pride, halting immigration.

Sound a lot like a bloody racist manifesto to me.

You voted the way you did, for whatever reasons you did, most will prob be unaffected by it all and wonder what the fuss was about, others have their lives turned upside down.
I know which one I am hoping I will be.

I've said why I voted Leave, and also that I regret my vote.

There are a lot of Leaver voters, that I personally know, who didn't vote for the racist manifesto. We voted to show that we didn't want even closer integration. A lot of us, me included, didn't really expect to win.

mellowsun · June 2016

Fretwired said:

Last year net migration was 330,000 - the size of a large city and is on course to be the same this year.

More ignorance I'm afraid. This figure includes students coming here to study, of which there were 192,000 last year, 3/4 of whom were from outside the EU.

Various bodies have lobbied to have students not included in the net migration figures - in common with other EU countries - but the government haven't been interested.

We don't keep track on how many students leave - most do now, as the post-study work criteria are so strict for non-EU students - so we don't know what the true net immigration figure is.

ToneControl · June 2016

the remain stats were more deceitful than the leave ones

Even the treasury said they were wrongly used

lloyd · June 2016

Fretwired said:

lloyd said:

Fretwired;1131603" said:
lloyd said:

Fretwired said:

professorben said:

Fretwired;1131522" said:professorben said:

As far as I'm concerned every single leave voter has potentially fucked my life up and as such you can all burn in what ever hell you believe in.

@ professorben Care to explain why?

My partner is European, her residency is reliant on the free movement of people guarenteed by the EU.

Her reaction to the recent news of leaving, of the increase in abuse and racist attitudes towards Europeans is to consider going back home, closing down the business we both sweated blood to set up, taking my son with her.

Leaving me a choice to follow to a country I can't yet speak the language, qualified in an industry that is not regulated in the same way it is here, which, if I COULD get a job in, pays nowhere near what I earn here.

I am realistically hopeful I can get a manual labour job, paying the equivalent of their minimum wage, obviously I won't be able to claim any benefits, so I will to all intents be emasculated, which I imagine puts terrible strain on a relationship.

All for no good reason I can see, what was so bad? People had jobs that wanted them, economy was doing ok, we had prospects and futures.

Sorry to read that. I'd just sit tight as I don't think she'll have to go anywhere. I live in Hertfordshire and without a major influx of EU migrants firms would have gone bust. There's no way migrants will be thrown out of the country. My best guess of what will happen is:

1) The UK remains - Merkel (let's face it she runs the show) gives the UK a migrant cap as a sop and the next PM ignores the referendum.

2) We leave but have free trade deal which will include free movement with maybe a cap above.

An immigration cap would be symbolic. I think there are some people who think 75 million Turks are about to turn up. I think Trump converting to Islam would be more likely to happen.

Anyone who voted leave to reduce immigration will be sorely disappointed as I can't see it being reduced any time soon. I have a friend who is a director of a local recruitment agency - she has loads of jobs and no candidates. So guess what - she advertises in the EU.

The police need to get a handle on racist intimidation though. Make an example of a few of them.

I'm sure if he shows her this it'll put her mind at ease, jesus, come on.

WTF

Just trying to put a positive spin on things ... I'll just crawl back to my hole and wait for Armageddon.
While I think you're probably right in that no ones going to have to go anywhere, we don't actually know.

Easy to put a positive spin on things if you're born and bred here but not so for those that aren't. It's a very real worry.

It come across very blasé mate to be fair.

Do you really think 3 million migrants will be asked to leave the UK when Cameron has said categorically that they won't. It would be too damaging to UK businesses and the UK's credibility in the world - we'd be labelled Nazis. And in Tory land house prices would crash - that's serious. It isn't going to happen.

People need to stop scaremongering and pedalling half truths and lies (not directed at you). And I'm married to an immigrant as well.

The best thing to do in my opinion is for moderate voices to speak up in support of migrants and tell those in charge what we want and drown out those spreading hate. It would help by not calling those who voted leave racists - it adds fuel to the fire.

And I'm pretty sure the fear factor is greater than the reality. I've scoured the web and can find stories, but no real facts - the police claim a few hundred more reports than usual. Let's not blow this out of proportion or make things worse by fuelling the climate of fear.

Feel free to blast me - I have a thick skin.

I'm not blasting anyone, I've said from the start of all this that IMO very little will change and I don't think any differently now. Thing is is that a lot of immigrants won't be as well informed as you and won't have the language skills to be able to inform themselves. A mate of mine is Hungarian, just had a little boy, his language skills have improved 10 fold in the year I've known him but he's worried, of course he is. You're married to an immigrant, which is fine, but you and her are both safe aren't you? Like I say, for those in the position of not knowing what's going to happen, have every right to feel worried, if you can't see that fair enough, but not everyone's as confident as you in what's going to happen.

Fretwired · June 2016

mellowsun said:

Fretwired said:

Last year net migration was 330,000 - the size of a large city and is on course to be the same this year.

More ignorance I'm afraid. This figure includes students coming here to study, of which there were 192,000 last year, 3/4 of whom were from outside the EU.

Various bodies have lobbied to have students not included in the net migration figures - in common with other EU countries - but the government haven't been interested.

We don't keep track on how many students leave - most do now, as the post-study work criteria are so strict for non-EU students - so we don't know what the true net immigration figure is.

I am aware of that but that is the only figure we have to go on and many students do not return home but stay here to gain work experience. In any case they need somewhere to live and often have part time jobs.

Since you're calling me ignorant I would point out that nobody knows the true immigration figure - people who claim they will be staying for less than a year are not included so the real figure could be higher.

Another interesting set of stats:

There were 630,000 National Insurance Number (NINo) registrations by EU nationals in YE March 2016. For non-EU nationals, there were 195,000 NINo registrations in YE March 2016. I know it is claimed that much of this is down to temporary workers but the truth is nobody knows.

For me immigration is a non-issue. If these people come here and work then we obviously need them and need to build more homes, schools and roads to accommodate a growing population. But you can't dismiss the concerns of working class people who claim they've been affected.

Mkjackary · June 2016

mellowsun said:

Fretwired said:

Last year net migration was 330,000 - the size of a large city and is on course to be the same this year.

More ignorance I'm afraid. This figure includes students coming here to study, of which there were 192,000 last year, 3/4 of whom were from outside the EU.

Various bodies have lobbied to have students not included in the net migration figures - in common with other EU countries - but the government haven't been interested.

We don't keep track on how many students leave - most do now, as the post-study work criteria are so strict for non-EU students - so we don't know what the true net immigration figure is.

Students coming here too study still live here, still go to hospital here, still do everything here. Some of them then leave after 5/6 years, others stay here forever, others are somewhere in between.

If they leave, they are accounted for in that year's (whatever year they leave) net migration. I don't know where you are getting the "we don't keep track of how many students leave" thing, would like to see some kind of evidence for a massive claim like that.

If we want to talk about the discrepancies in net migration look at the difference between the NI numbers given out and the number migrants. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36271390

---

Done some research and can't find anything about students not being accounted for when leaving.

Students can be temporary, but they are not all making the assumption that they are all temporary would make the figures incorrect. Students are different from the common image of "migrant" but that doesn't mean we should classify them differently, or not include them.

Also less than half of students leave upon completing their study. This isn't to say that they won't leave in say 5-60 years, but if and when they do, they will be accounted for. But in the meantime, they are a person just like everyone else, they eat sleep live and breath, contribute, take out, die, give birth, just like everyone else, and so should be counted just like everyone else.

mellowsun · June 2016

I apologise for (indirectly - your post rather than you

calling you ignorant @Fretwired.

digitalscream · June 2016

Interestingly, and I realise I'm now encouraging the thread to go even further off-topic, population growth as a percentage is actually down since the '60s. In 1961 it was 0.8%, compared to 0.7% in 2014.

ToneControl · June 2016

ICBM said:

Troy said:
Anyway, the Remain campaign also lied and exaggerated the figures too!

The Remain campaign made some exaggerated predictions about bad things that might happen if we left. We don't actually know whether they're accurate or not yet - they may well be less exaggerated than you think. Or not.

The Leave campaign outright lied on several issues, some of which they were criticised for before the vote but insisted were true even though they knew they were not, and some of which they have now admitted were not true.

Not a subtle difference or one of scale.

we already know that the remain predictions were based on flawed simplistic models, and that the treasury official denounced the way that had been misleading used by the remain campaign

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36397732

More deceitful than the £350m figure I reckon, since the numbers were much higher

but I'll meet you in the middle and say both campaigns were misleading

However the last-minute threat of an emergency budget which would somehow save money that might be lost in 10 or 15 years time was ludicrous

hobbio · June 2016

More babies in the 60's though, surely?

Clarky · June 2016

professorben said:

Fretwired;1131522" said:
professorben said:

As far as I'm concerned every single leave voter has potentially fucked my life up and as such you can all burn in what ever hell you believe in.

@ professorben Care to explain why?
My partner is European, her residency is reliant on the free movement of people guarenteed by the EU.
Her reaction to the recent news of leaving, of the increase in abuse and racist attitudes towards Europeans is to consider going back home, closing down the business we both sweated blood to set up, taking my son with her.
Leaving me a choice to follow to a country I can't yet speak the language, qualified in an industry that is not regulated in the same way it is here, which, if I COULD get a job in, pays nowhere near what I earn here.
I am realistically hopeful I can get a manual labour job, paying the equivalent of their minimum wage, obviously I won't be able to claim any benefits, so I will to all intents be emasculated, which I imagine puts terrible strain on a relationship.

All for no good reason I can see, what was so bad? People had jobs that wanted them, economy was doing ok, we had prospects and futures.

that just sux so badly

try to encourage her to sit tight until the dust settles

no matter what the outcome, I seriously doubt foreigners will be sent home

worse case I reckon is that after the UK leaves the EU [should it actually happen], she may need to do a little paperwork..

I'd imagine that folks that live here already should get some sort of preferential treatment [compared with new folks showing up at the border]… plus, if your child was born here, your child is a UK citizen.. which I believe will make a difference..

with respect to the ignorant wankers that seem to be crawling out from the places they've been hiding..

there are not many of them.. the referendum result has emboldened a few of them..

their shit was not tolerated before the vote and won't be tolerated now..

I doubt it'll be long before they're made to go back into hiding..

reassure her that there is no need to do anything rash…

just ride this out.. I doubt it'll last long

and no matter if you move or stay, you should learn to speak Czech anyhow

because the lil' un should be encouraged to grow up bi-lingual and you should be able to join in with the conversation even if you stink at speaking the language… and if you do stink at the language, you [as I do with my Spanish family] will provide a source of great amusement for them.. and everyone needs something to smile about eh..

I find it so comforting to know that I managed to spread just a little joy around the family every time I say 'credit card' in Spanish

best of luck to ya, the missus and lil' 'un matey..

Mkjackary · June 2016

digitalscream said:

Interestingly, and I realise I'm now encouraging the thread to go even further off-topic, population growth as a percentage is actually down since the '60s. In 1961 it was 0.8%, compared to 0.7% in 2014.

Interesting, but it has to. A country's growth should look somewhat like a log graph, a period of rapid growth followed by a decrease in the rate of growth, followed by a leveling out and coming to (or close to) zero growth. I country has a limit, and as it gets closer and closer to that limit it should gradually slow down.

Plus that is in the height of the baby boom, so not the best comparison.

paulmapp8306 · June 2016

mellowsun said:

Fretwired said:

Last year net migration was 330,000 - the size of a large city and is on course to be the same this year.

More ignorance I'm afraid. This figure includes students coming here to study, of which there were 192,000 last year, 3/4 of whom were from outside the EU.

Various bodies have lobbied to have students not included in the net migration figures - in common with other EU countries - but the government haven't been interested.

We don't keep track on how many students leave - most do now, as the post-study work criteria are so strict for non-EU students - so we don't know what the true net immigration figure is.

Why? just asking.

Net migration is those comnig in - those going out. If you count students coming in you should count them going out. I dont know - but Id think it checkable from the Census's. If net migration is circa 300k then every 10 years the population should rise 3 mill - deaths + births

paulmapp8306 · June 2016

ToneControl said:

the remain stats were more deceitful than the leave ones

Even the treasury said they were wrongly used

a Lie is a Lie is a Lie.

octatonic · June 2016

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Campaign lies, and consequences

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