Brexit legal challenge.

fretmeister

The one thing this subject needs is people being deliberately provocative.

And you're a cunt if you don't agree.

skankdelvar

digitalscream said:

So...your post is deliberately provocative and full of class-based slurs, but when somebody calls you on it...you can never listen to them again?

Bit foolish, son. Does explain the tone of your posts on the subject, though.

It's pretty clear that you have completely misunderstood where I'm coming from. (Thanks for the patronising 'Son' by the way,. Further indication that you're not bothering to read what I'm writing).

Try reading my post again. I said that you'd lost the argument afaic because your disgust has occluded your judgement. I'm happy to respond to any reasoned argument but I won't permit you to misrepresent my position or patronise me or insult me just because you can't handle spirited, tortuous debate.

Face facts; you and I have never engaged in 1-2-1 dialogue before. Yet in our first conversation you advance a 'chip on the shoulder class' argument'. You mention class-based slurs. 

Here's the skinny: I'm a middle-class hand-wringing Remainer who harbours serious doubts about an apparently nit-picking artificial prolongation of the debate and the dreadful possibilities consequent upon what may be perceived by some as a class-driven legal cheat.

Now, are you ready to continue debating or not?

ToneControl

Clarky said:

ToneControl said:

Brits are dreaming if they think the EU is an open door to working abroad. Almost zero Brits have language skills that could equip them, and only very specialist skills like for example IT, engineering or Banking could ever get you a job in the EU

I'm saying it's a one way street. Almost no-one ever from the Uk will succeed in a career in the EU. The other direction, no problem.

How can you negotiate the politics in a foreign language in which you are not completely (really) fluent?

this is not completely true

setting aside my family that are actually Spanish

I have English family in Spain that have been there for more than 15 years [which btw are not in contact with my Spanish family]..

none of them are IT, engineering or banking

my stepdad set up a successful business there, my bro-in-law is a plasterer, sis owned and ran a bar for a while but now works in a casino..

I know / have met many of their British and non-Spanish friends out there too and none of them work in any of the industries you listed. They do all kinds of stuff and most of them only speak very rudimentary Spanish [pretty sad in my opinion], but somehow they manage to get by [bi-lingual lawyers / contacts etc]..

of my English family that live there, my nieces and nephew speak 'native' Spanish [cos they were either very young when they moved there or born there], my sister is fluent but has a shit accent and crap grammar [but still much better than me], my mum is reasonably conversational, and my bro-in-law and stepdad are not very good at speaking it at all…

that said, they [like their friends] are resourceful and manage to find a way.. and manage to make a nice living..

wife's bro has lived in Germany for 20 years and does dry lining and plastering..

he went there only speaking English and what he learned after a year of German evening classes before he went [he's fluent now]..

settled down with a German girlie years ago.. etc etc..

also, a pal of mine is an engineer in Amsterdam working for a large US telecoms company

his Dutch is very limited [according to my Dutch pals] but he is a skilled engineer and the spoken language of the company is English..

from what I gather, he's been there more than 10 years and is doing pretty good..

My cousin Trish is English but lives in The Hague [20+ years]..

she's a DJ and dance teacher.. didn't speak Dutch when she arrived but does now fluently

not every job / career path for a Brit in the EU involves a large corp..

and most folk just go without knowing the language and then figure stuff out when they get there..

I think it's quite impressive actually to have that sort of bottle..

and of all the Brits I know in the EU [apart from my mate in the telco in the NL] they all do all sorts of stuff [bars, cafes, building trades, property etc..]

you'd be really surprised...

Certainly it's not completely true, but the stats show it's 90%+ true, very few Brits emigrate to the EU

Your family and friends must be unusual, based on the stats I've seen. For me, my anecdotal reality check is very different:

I know one person from my childhood who has settled in the EU (Paris), and that's my sister's friend. In fact I think each of her siblings lives in a different country, it's a family where people spread out, it seems. 

However, I have 2 friends in the USA, 2 in NZ, one who roams around diving areas and will retire to Cyprus

Amongst work colleagues over the years, one worked during the week in Holland for a year, and about 6 went to Oz or NZ, 6 went to Canada

I can't think of one person who moved to the EU to work

Fact is - Brits are very poor at learning languages unless it's their main degree subject, or if they grow up in a place where a foreign language is spoken

Anyway, I should explain that my point is: 

This "you've stolen my future" slogan you see out there is Bullshit for 99% of UK nationals. Only 1% of Brits ever go and work abroad in Europe for more than a temp job, and those who do migrate to Europe would probably do that regardless of whether we were in the EU. 

siremoon

I have no idea how representative my experience is but in my 30 plus year career I encountered relatively few UK citizens working in IT in the EU.  There were some at Airbus in Toulouse, some at ESA in Darmstadt, some at Philips in Eindhoven and Hilversum, some at Ericsson in Stockholm, some at the EU and some in automotive mainly in Germany.  Far more common the other way round.  I've worked here with loads of people from the EU and farther afield.

Off shore development is very popular in IT (generally amongst the accountants rather than the engineers but that's another story).  For many years India was the location of choice but since the EU has expanded into Eastern Europe then many companies have set up there because locals can be employed at far lower rates than they can here.  Rates of pay in IT in the EU seem to me to be generally lower than here which is one of the reasons why they come here of course.

p90fool

ToneControl said:

Evilmags said:

This by a mile, and it was actually a (top London hedge fund) Greek economist with 35 years market experience who made this point most forcefully to me. People forget that their are many countries who would love a free trade agreement with the world´s fifth largest economy. I remember the same doom mongers in 1992 when the UK left the exchange mechanism, so I know what happens next if we leave. And it´s a lot better than staying. 

I wonder how may remainers have actually lived and worked in Europe? If they had they´d have a much more positive view of leaving the EU. Europe is nice to live in. It is awful to try and earn money and get promoted in. 

Also:

from the stats I've seen, there are about 1.2m Brits living in the EU

of those nearly 1m are pensioners living in Spain, bankrolled by the UK

I've heard ones in Lanzarote saying "when I was ill, they flew me to Las Palmas, and put my Mrs up in a hotel". Duh, the Dept of Health gets a monthly invoice for all this

This leaves about 250k Brits working in the EU

latest estimates I saw are that 300k French people live in London

So that's more French just in London than all the working Brits in the EU

Brits are dreaming if they think the EU is an open door to working abroad. Almost zero Brits have language skills that could equip them, and only very specialist skills like for example IT, engineering or Banking could ever get you a job in the EU

Whereas the other way, many many Professional Europeans have good enough English to work here very easily. The Dutch and Scandis would pass almost unnoticed 

I'm saying it's a one way street. Almost no-one ever from the Uk will succeed in a career in the EU. The other direction, no problem.

How can you negotiate the politics in a foreign language in which you are not completely (really) fluent?

Our victory in dominating the world with our language (via our large teenage offspring the USA) has meant that almost all Brits are not equipped to follow a career path in full in the EU, whereas the USA, Canada, Oz and NZ are possible

I worked with a programme manager who had the right idea: live in the Pyrenees, commute to the UK

Even better live in Spain or Cyprus, and work from home for a UK firm

I'd try this if I didn't have teenage kids in the UK

Not everyone is as parochial-minded as you, I've lived and worked in the EU and loved it. The opportunities for promotion and careers are exactly the same as here, do you seriously think that France and Germany are some kind of backward, feudal society?

People have jobs, careers, education, it's no different to anywhere else. The natural fear and suspicion of foreigners by "Brits" is really what this whole thing is about isn't it?

Some of us love to travel, work and truly integrate, your loathsome Ex-Pat attitude is actually the only thing holding you back, don't blame Johnny Foreigner for that.

ToneControl

p90fool said:

Not everyone is as parochial-minded as you, I've lived and worked in the EU and loved it. The opportunities for promotion and careers are exactly the same as here, do you seriously think that France and Germany are some kind of backward, feudal society? 

People have jobs, careers, education, it's no different to anywhere else. The natural fear and suspicion of foreigners by "Brits" is really what this whole thing is about isn't it?

Some of us love to travel, work and truly integrate, your loathsome Ex-Pat attitude is actually the only thing holding you back, don't blame Johnny Foreigner for that.

we're saying the same thing here:

I'm saying Brits don't have the inclination to work abroad, so why cry about leaving the EU when 99% of Brits could not be bothered to go and work in it anyway

What's my loathsome ex-pat attitude anyway?

I've never worked abroad

p90fool

"the right idea: live in the Pyrenees, commute to the UK
Even better live in Spain or Cyprus, and work from home for a UK firm
I'd try this if I didn't have teenage kids in the UK"

digitalscream

skankdelvar said:

Try reading my post again. I said that you'd lost the argument afaic because your disgust has occluded your judgement. I'm happy to respond to any reasoned argument but I won't permit you to misrepresent my position or patronise me or insult me just because you can't handle spirited, tortuous debate.

Well, that gave me a chuckle...

Seriously, read your post that started this again, and you'll perhaps see what I was talking about.

ToneControl

p90fool said:

"the right idea: live in the Pyrenees, commute to the UK
Even better live in Spain or Cyprus, and work from home for a UK firm
I'd try this if I didn't have teenage kids in the UK"

you're missing my point

I'm acknowledging that I don't have the language skills to work properly in the EU, and suggesting how I could successfully live and work in the EU. 

If I went, even to retire, I'd be studying very hard to pick up local language skills so as to not live in an English bubble, 

but I recognise that I am not equipped to simply get a similar job in an EU country without massive problems with language 

Anyway, I think using the word "loathsome" is very uncalled for

Sporky

Evilmags said:

Wow, the same people arguing to null and void a referendum, the most proportional of all elections, then argue for proportional representation. Left wing hypocrisy is seriously such a contradiction in logic that it never fails to leave me stunned. If you cant see the (blindingly obvious) contradictions between both positions, please, just stop voting....

This reminds me of when you had a huge go at anyone using the phrase "climate change deniers" because it was disgusting to use language that you insisted was evocative of "holocaust deniers", in between posts in which you called people "eco-nazis" for suggesting we use less fossil fuels.

Mags, you're no true Scotsman.

p90fool

ToneControl;1138747" said:

p90fool said:

"the right idea: live in the Pyrenees, commute to the UK

Even better live in Spain or Cyprus, and work from home for a UK firm

I'd try this if I didn't have teenage kids in the UK"





you're missing my pointI'm acknowledging that I don't have the language skills to work properly in the EU, and suggesting how I could successfully live and work in the EU. 

If I went, even to retire, I'd be studying very hard to pick up local language skills so as to not live in an English bubble, but I recognise that I am not equipped to simply get a similar job in an EU country without massive problems with language 

Anyway, I think using the word "loathsome" is very uncalled for

That was too strong, I apologise.

My point remains though, that it's ok for the rest of the world to learn to integrate in different countries, but as a generalisation British people are crap at it, while simultaneously turning into the "foreigners" fault, often with a contemptuous sneer.

I still feel, all economic arguments aside, that this is at the core of the Brexit vote, something that I find deeply depressing.

It's all around me at work, and though I'm too old to be surprised I still preferred it when it was less overt.

hungrymark

Give it to parliament. If they've got any sense they'll vote to proceed with article 50. Then it's legally solid, they've done more than they necessarily needed to (I'm not convinced that it is neccessary) and we can all just get on with it.

skankdelvar

digitalscream said:

skankdelvar said:

Try reading my post again. I said that you'd lost the argument afaic because your disgust has occluded your judgement. I'm happy to respond to any reasoned argument but I won't permit you to misrepresent my position or patronise me or insult me just because you can't handle spirited, tortuous debate.

Well, that gave me a chuckle...

Seriously, read your post that started this again, and you'll perhaps see what I was talking about.

So clearly not yet ready to debate the key issue: that irrespective of any good-faith arguments for the challenge it's likely that dyed-in-the-wool-leavers are probably going to react to the challenge in the way I've been suggesting. And that the consequences may be dire for everyone.

Still, you had 'a chuckle' so at least you've gained something positive from this discussion. I'll leave you to get on with it. 

Have a good day. :-)

ToneControl

p90fool said:

ToneControl;1138747" said:

p90fool said:

"the right idea: live in the Pyrenees, commute to the UK

Even better live in Spain or Cyprus, and work from home for a UK firm

I'd try this if I didn't have teenage kids in the UK"





you're missing my pointI'm acknowledging that I don't have the language skills to work properly in the EU, and suggesting how I could successfully live and work in the EU. 

If I went, even to retire, I'd be studying very hard to pick up local language skills so as to not live in an English bubble, but I recognise that I am not equipped to simply get a similar job in an EU country without massive problems with language 

Anyway, I think using the word "loathsome" is very uncalled for

That was too strong, I apologise.

My point remains though, that it's ok for the rest of the world to learn to integrate in different countries, but as a generalisation British people are crap at it, while simultaneously turning into the "foreigners" fault, often with a contemptuous sneer.

I still feel, all economic arguments aside, that this is at the core of the Brexit vote, something that I find deeply depressing.

It's all around me at work, and though I'm too old to be surprised I still preferred it when it was less overt.

Not the "foreigners" fault. no. Especially when the Brit would be the foreigner

and those ideas I favoured about working remotely for employers in the UK but living somewhere more attractive were intended to be ways of preserving a UK salary level whilst working in a country where the same job pays 50% less

fretmeister

Sporky said:

Evilmags said:

Wow, the same people arguing to null and void a referendum, the most proportional of all elections, then argue for proportional representation. Left wing hypocrisy is seriously such a contradiction in logic that it never fails to leave me stunned. If you cant see the (blindingly obvious) contradictions between both positions, please, just stop voting....

This reminds me of when you had a huge go at anyone using the phrase "climate change deniers" because it was disgusting to use language that you insisted was evocative of "holocaust deniers", in between posts in which you called people "eco-nazis" for suggesting we use less fossil fuels.

Mags, you're no true Scotsman.

He had a point.

I think "Ecosystem Death Advocates" is a more positive term.

Heartfeltdawn

skankdelvar said:Here's the skinny: I'm a middle-class hand-wringing Remainer who harbours serious doubts about an apparently nit-picking artificial prolongation of the debate and the dreadful possibilities consequent upon what may be perceived by some as a class-driven legal cheat.

If anyone does take it as a class-based cheat, then a) they are mistaken and b) it's more evidence of the political classes on both sides of the campaign failing to tell the whole story. It shouldn't be down to newspapers to point out that this referendum was non-binding (something the offical government literature failed to do) as they did well before the referendum occurred. The information was there, it's simply that the politicians and a lot of the Brexiting media didn't print it, preferring to keep up this nonsense dialogue invoking the "will of the people". Page 25 of a House of Commons Briefing Paper from 3 June 2015 states thus:

European Union Referendum Bill 2015-2016

This Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of 2017. It does not contain any requirement for the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions. The referendums held in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in 1997 and 1998 are examples of this type, where opinion was tested before legislation was introduced. 

The UK does not have constitutional provisions which would require the results of a referendum to be implemented, unlike, for example, the Republic of Ireland, where the circumstances in which a binding referendum should be held are set out in its constitution. In contrast, the legislation which provided for the referendum held on AV in May 2011 would have implemented the new system of voting without further legislation, provided that the boundary changes also provided for in the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituency Act 2011 were also implemented. In the event, there was a substantial majority against any change. The 1975 referendum was held after the re-negotiated terms of the UK’s EC membership had been agreed by all EC Member States and the terms set out in a command paper and agreed by both Houses.

Clearly laid out, simple to understand. 

Sporky

And yet there's a contingent of rabid leavers who want to subvert democracy by insisting that the referendum must be acted on.

Fretwired

Another viewpoint on the legal challenge ...

Martin Howe, QC, the chairman of Lawyers for Britain, condemned the challenge as “devoid of all legal merit”.

“As a matter of law, giving of notification under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union is a matter of Crown prerogative. No act or other parliamentary approval is required before this is done. In the European Union Act 2011 parliament has chosen to require parliamentary approval before ministers are allowed to take certain actions under the European treaties, but notably has not extended any such restrictions to Article 50. Any argument that there is an implied restriction is therefore quite hopeless.

“It is deeply objectionable but sadly not unexpected that those who suffer from a deep-rooted contempt for democracy should resort to legal antics . . .”

Chalky

Bit academic to say its not binding when the majority of voters seem to think it is. Technically correct of course but since when has 'technically correct' mattered to the vox pop.

fretmeister

Fretwired said:

Another viewpoint on the legal challenge ...

Martin Howe, QC, the chairman of Lawyers for Britain, condemned the challenge as “devoid of all legal merit”.

“As a matter of law, giving of notification under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union is a matter of Crown prerogative. No act or other parliamentary approval is required before this is done. In the European Union Act 2011 parliament has chosen to require parliamentary approval before ministers are allowed to take certain actions under the European treaties, but notably has not extended any such restrictions to Article 50. Any argument that there is an implied restriction is therefore quite hopeless.

“It is deeply objectionable but sadly not unexpected that those who suffer from a deep-rooted contempt for democracy should resort to legal antics . . .”

He should stick to his own area of expertise.

He's not a constitutional lawyer. Never has been. He's an intellectual property specialist and his most recent noted case was arguing about Rhianna's image rights on T-Shirts sold by Top Shop.

It's like getting an opinion on a brain injury from an orthopaedic surgeon.