Another attack in France...

lloyd · July 2016

quarky said:

lloyd said:

@quarky The big difference with McVey, Hitler, and the IRA is that they were not doing those things "in the name of" their religion or belief. Take a look at these: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/in-nations-with-significant-muslim-populations-much-disdain-for-isis/ it's pretty sobering. And to say it's "unfair to single out Islam" is a fucking joke, 99% of terrorist events in the last few years have been Muslims or people that identify as Muslims. Now I'm not saying all Muslims are terrorists, or even most Muslims are terrorists, but it's fair to say that (overwhelmingly) most terrorists are (or identify as) Muslims. I'd say the same thing 30 years ago but replace Muslim with NI Catholic, All your examples of people doing it in gods name are lone fucktards where God is telling them to do it-not an organised terror attack backed and financed by people that are doing these things in islams name, and if we're honest, are following the religious texts to the fucking letter-if Christian fundamentalists were following the bibles rhetoric word for word, they'd be just as bad as these whoppers, but they're not. The problem is is that Muslims (not all calm down) are. To deny that Islam is a problem is unhelpful and disingenuous, there's avert fucking real problem with Islam, and until people step up and accept it without fear of being Called racist, it will continue. Check out this guy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarek_Fatah (a moderate Canadian-naturalised-Pakistani Muslim) in particular his epic address to the Canadian government and their bullshit leftist ways of dealing with the issue and come back with the same thoughts and comments.

Jesus, how about some line breaks

Without doubt there are a lot of terrorist acts committed by people who are Islamists, I haven't said otherwise. But I think that many of those attacks would go on regardless of which religion those people were. Some of these people are very recent converts who were already trouble beforehand. They were not normal members of society, they already felt ostracised. What is going on the Middle East just gives them an excuse. And those trying to strike out against the people bombing their homes would still be doing it if religion wasn't involved here. The religion just gives them a shared sense of identity.
-if Christian fundamentalists were following the bibles rhetoric word for word, they'd be just as bad as these whoppers, but they're not
I agree. And I think if the Middle East was Christian, they would be doing just that. Or do you think that if Syria and Iraq were following a different relgion, none of this would be a problem? If so, I would be interested to know why that is.

As for my comment about Hitler, Stalin, Leopold II, that was in reference to bad things done by Christians hundreds of years ago. Actually, you don't need to go anywhere near that far back. Didn't Blair and Bush say they got the "ok" from god before invading Iraq and making huge contributions to this shit-storm?

Apologies, the iPad doesn't allow paragraphs. I try. You miss the overwhelming point and ignore the overwhelming evidence-that these attacks are done in the name of Islam and 99% of deaths caused by terrorism in the last 15 years have been done in the name of Islam. To say Judaism and Christianity has blood on its hands too massively misses the point. The Middle East could be following Mormonism and doing it in the name of Joseph fuckbollocks but they don't and they're not, I'm not sure what your point is? The real issue is here, today and now, and the stark facts are that this is a problem within Islam, like it or not. But yeah, ignore the Pew reports and stats and call the fucking huge fuck up of the U.K. And the US in Iraq/Afghanistan a religious invasion-did bush or Blair do it because God told them or did they do it anyway and appease their respective populations by saying God ok'd it? It's hugely different and you know it. I don't say this to legitimise what they did, but it's a different argument. They'd have done it whether religious, atheist or not, the religion was secondary.

Ro_S · July 2016

quarky said:

Well, lets not forget the IRA. I am pretty sure they are Christian terrorists.

The IRA is not comparable to ISIS related terrorism.

Yes, it was sectarian and the IRA are Catholic, but the IRA were not causing terror and killing others inspired by and solely due to their interpretation of a holy text. Their cause and motivation was that of independence and nationalism.

ISIS, and those who associate themselves with ISIS, are inspired to kill directly due the type of Islam they follow and believe in. They regard the killing as an act of faith. Their inspiration is entirely religious. Their form of Islam does not make a distinction between religion and politics; they do not regard anything as secular.

The type of Islam which ISIS follow is preached within France and Britain. The ideology is disseminated within our own lands, helping the emergence of home grown terrorists. Before France starts to increase military attacks in Syria etc,, it needs attend to issues within its own borders.

quarky · July 2016

I think "done in the name of islam" is an over simplification. Most of these people are not killing people to make them or their families convert (to spread religion), they are doing so because of what they see being done to other people (of their religion) in the ME (not to spread religion).

Witnesses at the Bataclan said the gunmen shouted in French, "This is because of all the harm done by Hollande to Muslims all over the world," according to The New York Times. Another witness confirmed this to CNN, telling the news network the attacker who shouted that statement sounded like a native French speaker.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/paris-attacks-why-terrorists-target-france-2015-11?r=US&IR=T

Clear as daylight. They feel a helplessness, and a stronger connection and with those people in the ME being attacked by France, then they do for their neighbours in France. They could all be Christians and that would be the same. Many of these were smokers and drinkers until just before the attacks. They were not devout muslims from birth (if at all).

They'd have done it whether religious, atheist or not, the religion was secondary.

I think a lot of muslim terrorists are the same.

lloyd · July 2016

So the current terrorist epidemic that's sweeping the world is coincidentally linked with Islam? Brilliant.

ToneControl · July 2016

quarky said:

But that is the case. On a holy book level, Islam *is* like Christianity. I don't disagree that ISIS are following selective passages from the Koran, just like anyone could do exactly the same from the bible. And that is the point. The problem isn't the holy books, it isn't the religion (of course those are problems, but *all of them*), it is the lunatic fringe, who are religious, who could belong to any of them. All those things (slavery, rape, underage sex) are in the bible too. Sorry.

And Christianity was spread by war too, against endorsed by the holy book. Have you read the bible?

I've read a lot of the bible, and read some big books analysing it too, although I shouldn't need to justify having an opinion.
AFAIk The bible contains less awful stuff done by humans than the stuff I've heard of in the Quran. But that's irrelevant to your point: you're saying that people doing awful stuff today because the Quran says so is OK, since some Christians did something similar centuries ago. So that means we do nothing? We don't even need to try to understand their motives?

quarky · July 2016

ToneControl said:

I never saw anything in the OT endorsing armed conquest/conversion and genocide.
Anyway, Christianity is based on the NT

Deuteronomy 13:15 , Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

Or have you read Revelations?

And Christianity is based on the entire bible, not just the NT, hence both parts being in the bible. And Matthew 5:17 makes that abundantly clear.

quarky · July 2016

lloyd said:

So the current terrorist epidemic that's sweeping the world is coincidentally linked with Islam? Brilliant.

ToneControl said:

quarky said:

But that is the case. On a holy book level, Islam *is* like Christianity. I don't disagree that ISIS are following selective passages from the Koran, just like anyone could do exactly the same from the bible. And that is the point. The problem isn't the holy books, it isn't the religion (of course those are problems, but *all of them*), it is the lunatic fringe, who are religious, who could belong to any of them. All those things (slavery, rape, underage sex) are in the bible too. Sorry.

And Christianity was spread by war too, against endorsed by the holy book. Have you read the bible?

I've read a lot of the bible, and read some big books analysing it too, although I shouldn't need to justify having an opinion.
AFAIk The bible contains less awful stuff done by humans than the stuff I've heard of in the Quran. But that's irrelevant to your point: you're saying that people doing awful stuff today because the Quran says so is OK, since some Christians did something similar centuries ago. So that means we do nothing? We don't even need to try to understand their motives?

Come on LLoyd, you are smarter than that. It would happen despite islam. Look at the motivations of the terrorists!

ToneControl, I am not saying that at all. There seems to be a theme on here that islam is bad because of what the koran says. The bible is just as bad, if not worse. The fact that few take it seriously any more doesn't make it less so. Anyone who took either book on face value is a nutter, and that is the point. Understanding their motives is the key, not just assuming they are doing it because of what is in the Koran. If it was as simple as that, given that the bible is as bad or worse, there would be more Christian terrorists (and actually, more muslim terrorists). But there isn't, they are tiny minorities in both cases because it is about more than religion.

ToneControl · July 2016

quarky said:

ToneControl said:

I never saw anything in the OT endorsing armed conquest/conversion and genocide.
Anyway, Christianity is based on the NT

Deuteronomy 13:15 , Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

Or have you read Revelations?

And Christianity is based on the entire bible, not just the NT, hence both parts being in the bible. And Matthew 5:17 makes that abundantly clear.

just being picky, but are there any rogue states using this text as their constitution?
Any descriptions of which prophets carried out these punishments?

I notice that even though this predates Islam by 1400-1500 years, it is less awful than what ISIS do:

10 When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

Again, what's your point? No Christian or Jewish pseudo-state is using this text to justify massive war crimes in 2016

I don't much care if some 3000 year old jewish text says something nasty, if no-one is acting on it

The Quran and Mohammed's biography give a template on how to create a world based on what we now consider war-crimes, and people are not using it as a holy guide to war. How is that not important to accept? Why should 1400 year older, ignored texts matter in this? What is your point? That all Muslim preaching is peaceful and benign, and that solely social injustice drives these war crimes?

ToneControl · July 2016

Or have you read Revelations?

And Christianity is based on the entire bible, not just the NT, hence both parts being in the bible. And Matthew 5:17 makes that abundantly clear.

Revelations is nuts

Christianity cherry picks the OT
Otherwise all Christians would be circumcised, and not eat pork, for a start

ToneControl · July 2016

quarky said:

Come on LLoyd, you are smarter than that. It would happen despite islam. Look at the motivations of the terrorists!

ToneControl, I am not saying that at all. There seems to be a theme on here that islam is bad because of what the koran says. The bible is just as bad, if not worse. The fact that few take it seriously any more doesn't make it less so. Anyone who took either book on face value is a nutter, and that is the point. Understanding their motives is the key, not just assuming they are doing it because of what is in the Koran. If it was as simple as that, given that the bible is as bad or worse, there would be more Christian terrorists (and actually, more muslim terrorists). But there isn't, they are tiny minorities in both cases because it is about more than religion.

Not a tiny minority - that's the problem
And my worry is that the whole poisonous war-crime-laden -morality was hugely popular once, and is again now. How can we say how catchy it is?

Ro_S · July 2016

quarky said:

It would happen despite islam. Look at the motivations of the terrorists!

.......................

quarky said:

not just assuming they are doing it because of what is in the Koran. If it was as simple as that, given that the bible is as bad or worse, there would be more Christian terrorists (and actually, more muslim terrorists). But there isn't, they are tiny minorities in both cases because it is about more than religion.

.............................

quarky said:

On a holy book level, Islam *is* like Christianity.

I don't disagree that ISIS are following selective passages from the Koran, just like anyone could do exactly the same from the bible. And that is the point. The problem isn't the holy books, it isn't the religion (of course those are problems, but *all of them*), it is the lunatic fringe, who are religious, who could belong to any of them. All those things (slavery, rape, underage sex) are in the bible too. Sorry.

.........................

quarky said:

Deuteronomy 13:15 , Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

Or have you read Revelations?

And Christianity is based on the entire bible, not just the NT, hence both parts being in the bible. And Matthew 5:17 makes that abundantly clear.

You really do make pretty crass statements.

Indeed, do look at the motivations of the ISIS terrorists. Guess what, it's cos they're Islamic and because their holy texts explicitly inspires them to kill. They even kill other Muslims - because their form of Islam tells them to do so.

Where are the Christian-inspired terrorists shooting Europeans and driving trucks into them? Oh, that's right, they aren't any! The problem doesn't exist. Let's focus on the problem that does exist: Islamic-inspired attacks committed by certain types of Muslims.

Christianity is principally concerned with the New Testament. The clue is in the name - Christ. The tenets of Christianity are inextricably related to the New Testament and Jesus. That's why Christianity is very different to Judaism.

Where in the Bible does is ascribe Jesus as advocating slavery, rape or under-age sex?

You misrepresent those sections of Matthew you quoted earlier.

The Book of Revelations? You really are scraping the barrel. It may be canon but only very dubiously so. Stuck into the end of the New Testament. It's the ravings of St John the Divine.

Cirrus · July 2016

Is it safe to assume that this thread has descended into a place where a bunch of people who aren't religious and know the whole thing is bullshit are arguing scripture?

lloyd · July 2016

quarky said:

lloyd said:

So the current terrorist epidemic that's sweeping the world is coincidentally linked with Islam? Brilliant.

ToneControl said:

quarky said:

But that is the case. On a holy book level, Islam *is* like Christianity. I don't disagree that ISIS are following selective passages from the Koran, just like anyone could do exactly the same from the bible. And that is the point. The problem isn't the holy books, it isn't the religion (of course those are problems, but *all of them*), it is the lunatic fringe, who are religious, who could belong to any of them. All those things (slavery, rape, underage sex) are in the bible too. Sorry.

And Christianity was spread by war too, against endorsed by the holy book. Have you read the bible?

I've read a lot of the bible, and read some big books analysing it too, although I shouldn't need to justify having an opinion.
AFAIk The bible contains less awful stuff done by humans than the stuff I've heard of in the Quran. But that's irrelevant to your point: you're saying that people doing awful stuff today because the Quran says so is OK, since some Christians did something similar centuries ago. So that means we do nothing? We don't even need to try to understand their motives?

Come on LLoyd, you are smarter than that. It would happen despite islam. Look at the motivations of the terrorists!

ToneControl, I am not saying that at all. There seems to be a theme on here that islam is bad because of what the koran says. The bible is just as bad, if not worse. The fact that few take it seriously any more doesn't make it less so. Anyone who took either book on face value is a nutter, and that is the point. Understanding their motives is the key, not just assuming they are doing it because of what is in the Koran. If it was as simple as that, given that the bible is as bad or worse, there would be more Christian terrorists (and actually, more muslim terrorists). But there isn't, they are tiny minorities in both cases because it is about more than religion.

Yeah it would but the fact is it's happening in the name of Islam, let's be real and talk real world and take hypotheticals out. It's the only way to talk about real issues, to put words I your mouth-you're smarter than that.

lloyd · July 2016

Let's get real-number of terrorist killings done in the name of religion in the last 15 years? Say 10,000? Number of those done in the name of Christianity/Judaism? Generously 500? And we should be talking about Islam and Christianity in the same breath? Fuck off, please.

lloyd · July 2016

And let's not talk about state sponsored shit-Israel, U.K. Bombings etc, as they're shit too, let's keep the dialogue to the issue with no strawmanning

Sambostar · July 2016

Are you familiar with your old Welsh circa 600AD manuscripts @lloyd? ;; That programme on David Jones the other night was pretty spot on for the BBC or whatever. David Jones was spot on. About time we had another war to kill off all the innocent isn't it? I count my blessings that I make it the two miles through the darkest woods back from the pub in the dark. I wish these nutter's throats were in our hands. I wish I understood what motivated them. I wish I could talk them around. I wish all people saw people as other people. People don't through do they. Everyone is as guilty of that.

ToneControl · July 2016

I think that religion gives those people who want to harm others an excuse to do so
Some religions are better than others at providing this license

Current evidence demonstrates that Islam scripture needs no modification or convoluted interpretation to provide this license
Whilst the 1000-2000 year old OT covers some similar material, it's a hypothetical comparison, because no-one is acting on the OT texts.

In addition, the OT texts are far more remote, and the text talks about what should happen - The Islamic text's genocide/rape/slavery is recorded as real events that did happen, with the main protagonist in being the head of the Islamic faith - Mohammed himself.

My conclusion is that the peaceful muslims (90% is it?) need to be supported, and the west needs to understand this issue and threat properly, and not just dismiss it as a few crazies who would have blown someone up anyway, because they were on the dole.

If there were 1b+ Jews, and 10% of them started taking over countries and running them under OT laws I'd worry about that, but they're not.

Myranda · July 2016

Christian terrorism? Bombing of abortion clinics in the US?

Catholics Vs Protestants?

The following were all by Christians in the name of God... Praises by "The Army of God" a group of far right radical Christians

Wisconsin Sikh Temple massacre, Aug. 5, 2012.

The murder of Dr. George Tiller, May 31, 2009

Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church shooting, July 27, 2008

The murder of Dr. John Britton, July 29, 1994.

The Centennial Olympic Park bombing, July 27, 1996

The murder of Barnett Slepian byJames Charles Kopp, Oct. 23, 1998

Planned Parenthood bombing, Brookline, Massachusetts, 1994.

Suicide attack on IRS building in Austin, Texas, Feb. 18, 2010.

KKK terrorism/murder (the Klan are a religious group...)

The murder of Alan Berg, June 18, 1984

Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing, April 19, 1995.
(the motivation being partly Ruby Ridge so there's still a religious link)

Go back a little further than that and there's a reign of terrorism in the form of white supremist groups (using passages of the Bible to justify their bigotry) lynching black people, beating black people or homosexuals...

America may be strange... But it has in the last hundred years seen a lot of religious hatred from Christians... But because of who writes the news and because they weren't using the term as often it wasn't called "terrorism". But hanging someone in front of a burning cross... Or putting burning crosses in people's gardens to terrorise them... It was terrorism. Just because it was racist doesn't stop it being religious in nature - it was all justified with old testament passages on mixing of race.

There are STILL websites in the US for Christian worship that talk about the shock of a child wanting to date outside their race... And condemnation for the child in question...

In the US there is a massive militarised police force that puts a lot of Christian extremists off doing more than ranting these days - but those extremists are sitting on huge stockpiles of weapons waiting for a chance to do "God's work"

Chalky · July 2016

Cirrus said:

Is it safe to assume that this thread has descended into a place where a bunch of people who aren't religious and know the whole thing is bullshit are arguing scripture?

Nah, its gone lower than that. They are arguing about texture, aroma, and constituent fecal matter in the bullshit.

quarky · July 2016

OK, lets use a little logic shall we.

Both the bible and the koran are full cruelty and hatred.
Both have inspired murder, rape, pillage, torture for hundreds of years.

The attackers in Paris specifically said ""This is because of all the harm done by Hollande to Muslims all over the world", and one of the organisers “..did not even go to the mosque.”
The attacker in Nice "did not go to the mosque and did not pray."

We know that the people involved in these attacks were marginalised, lived troubled lives. They were also disturbed by the bombings and killings in ME, amongst people they *do* feel a connection to.

So, if you are going to label this as happening because of islam, riddle me this:
- Why aren't these terrorists regular attendees at Mosque?
- Why did they live a typical Western style life rather than according to how most muslims would say the Koran says they should live?
- if 10% of muslims are terrorists (I assume that is your insinuation from the 90% you mention), why are the other 90% peaceful (and I have no idea where you get the idea that 10% of all muslims are involved in terrorism)? Do you think that is because those 90% are the ones who don't practice islam correctly and the 10% are the ones who do?
- Why are the vast majority of terrorism victims worldwide muslim?
- Why is there such a massive cover up within the communities (which were affected themselves) to lie about the behaviour and motives of these people?
- Why in the case of Paris, were the attackers themselves lying to describe their motives?
- As Islam has existed since around 600, why is terrorism in France like this a much more recent issue?

Bonus point:
- As the religious texts are both full of hate/cruelty, please explain why you think if the religions were reversed, there would not be Christians doing exactly what marginalized people who identify with those innocent people in the ME are doing (since we know that the there have been Christian terrorists, but according to this thread, they are not comparable)?

There is no logical defence of the "it's an islam problem" because the facts don't add up. And that kind of blinkered assumption behind the motivation of these people is part of the problem.

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