Another attack in France...

quarky · July 2016

JezWynd said:

quarky said:

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

There in black and white. He had a chance to say otherwise, but no, he specifically says that the old laws still apply.

That's some tenuous linkage you've got going there. The 'old' testament hadn't even been compiled when Jesus was around. It was assembled by committee some hundreds of years later. To use those 'quotes' from his mouth to justify a whole load of vicious bile written by religious fanatics is somewhat unfair.

The books in the OT like Genesis, Exodus, Deutrronomy, Numbers, Judges, etc. were from the Jewish writings, which were well known because the OT, the Koran, and the Torah all share a common history. While there sure some changes in the makeup of the bible at the Council of Nicea etc. the OT was largely unchanged so I don't see how on earth you can claim that Jesus was talking about anything else.

Ro_S · July 2016

@quarky said:

- if 10% of muslims are terrorists (I assume that is your insinuation from the 90% you mention), why are the other 90% peaceful (and I have no idea where you get the idea that 10% of all muslims are involved in terrorism)? Do you think that is because those 90% are the ones who don't practice islam correctly and the 10% are the ones who do?

First,
There is no 'correct' and 'incorrect' way to practice a religion. That is an entirely subjective judgement. There are merely different forms and interpretations of a religion.
Your difficulty in understanding this is what is causing you to come out with naive, simplified and crass statements and arguments.

Second,
@ToneControl did not suggest that 10% of Muslims are terrorists. He posited that he perhaps 10% of Muslims follow a form of Islam that is not peaceful.

Ro_S · July 2016

quarky said:

So, if you are going to label this as happening because of islam, riddle me this:
[...]
- Why are the vast majority of terrorism victims worldwide muslim?

That's very easy to answer.

First,
The form of Islam followed by ISIS means that they do not regard other types Muslims as 'proper' Muslims. They take direct inspiration from their holy texts that they should feel obligated to kill these other types of Muslims. They don't just kill 'infidels'.

Second,
Muslim countries have a lot of Muslims in them and in nearby counties. Therefore, a large number of ISIS targets - other Muslims - are on their doorstep.

lloyd · July 2016

Let's not forget that the old and new testaments are very different beasts too, lot of fire and brimstone in the OT but if everyone was following Jesus' works to the letter, I think the world would be a better place. I'm not religious in the slightest by the way, I think it's all fucked up.

lloyd · July 2016

Myranda said:

Christian terrorism? Bombing of abortion clinics in the US?

Catholics Vs Protestants?

The following were all by Christians in the name of God... Praises by "The Army of God" a group of far right radical Christians

Wisconsin Sikh Temple massacre, Aug. 5, 2012.

The murder of Dr. George Tiller, May 31, 2009

Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church shooting, July 27, 2008

The murder of Dr. John Britton, July 29, 1994.

The Centennial Olympic Park bombing, July 27, 1996

The murder of Barnett Slepian byJames Charles Kopp, Oct. 23, 1998

Planned Parenthood bombing, Brookline, Massachusetts, 1994.

Suicide attack on IRS building in Austin, Texas, Feb. 18, 2010.

KKK terrorism/murder (the Klan are a religious group...)

The murder of Alan Berg, June 18, 1984

Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing, April 19, 1995.
(the motivation being partly Ruby Ridge so there's still a religious link)

Go back a little further than that and there's a reign of terrorism in the form of white supremist groups (using passages of the Bible to justify their bigotry) lynching black people, beating black people or homosexuals...

America may be strange... But it has in the last hundred years seen a lot of religious hatred from Christians... But because of who writes the news and because they weren't using the term as often it wasn't called "terrorism". But hanging someone in front of a burning cross... Or putting burning crosses in people's gardens to terrorise them... It was terrorism. Just because it was racist doesn't stop it being religious in nature - it was all justified with old testament passages on mixing of race.

There are STILL websites in the US for Christian worship that talk about the shock of a child wanting to date outside their race... And condemnation for the child in question...

In the US there is a massive militarised police force that puts a lot of Christian extremists off doing more than ranting these days - but those extremists are sitting on huge stockpiles of weapons waiting for a chance to do "God's work"

Let's breakdown the number of deaths caused and individual incidents over the last 20 years by each religions mentalists and then decide which one is the biggest issue to have to deal with. To simply say "Christians do it too" misses the point that there's a real issue within Islam, it's like me saying there's 1000 potholes on my road that need fixing, then people saying that there is a pothole on the road round the corner-it solves nor adds anything to the debate.

Cirrus · July 2016

It's more like you saying there's 1000 potholes on your road that need fixing, so there must be something wrong with the road surface used. Then we say "well there are 10,000 other roads that use the same road surface and don't have any potholes, so maybe the problem is actually something else" and you say "no, you don't get it, it's got to be the road surface because there wouldn't be pot holes if the road surface wasn't an issue".

Then we find out the US and Russian military have been using your road as target practice for 50 years and the head of your council is embezzling the money it gets that it's supposed to use to fix the road.

But no, the road surface is the problem.

quarky · July 2016

Ro_S said:

@quarky said:

- if 10% of muslims are terrorists (I assume that is your insinuation from the 90% you mention), why are the other 90% peaceful (and I have no idea where you get the idea that 10% of all muslims are involved in terrorism)? Do you think that is because those 90% are the ones who don't practice islam correctly and the 10% are the ones who do?

First,
There is no 'correct' and 'incorrect' way to practice a religion. That is an entirely subjective judgement. There are merely different forms and interpretations of a religion.
Your difficulty in understanding this is what is causing you to come out with naive, simplified and crass statements and arguments.

Second,
@ToneControl did not suggest that 10% of Muslims are terrorists. He posited that he perhaps 10% of Muslims follow a form of Islam that is not peaceful.

Well he suggested that only 90% were peaceful. So my insinuation is that the other 10% are not peaceful. If there is some kind of "third way" that is not "peaceful" or "not peaceful", that make up the other 10%, I am all ears waiting for an explanation.

Or in case you want to weasel out and claim that a significant proportion follow a violent form of Islam (although I haven't see many facts present at all on here to back up the claims made), which one?

Because by doing so, we have to ignore, or completely the professed motives and background of most of the people involved in the recent attacks. Actually, we can't ignore it, we need to pretend that there motives were actually different in some cases.

quarky · July 2016

lloyd said:

Myranda said:

Christian terrorism? Bombing of abortion clinics in the US?

Catholics Vs Protestants?

The following were all by Christians in the name of God... Praises by "The Army of God" a group of far right radical Christians

Wisconsin Sikh Temple massacre, Aug. 5, 2012.

The murder of Dr. George Tiller, May 31, 2009

Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church shooting, July 27, 2008

The murder of Dr. John Britton, July 29, 1994.

The Centennial Olympic Park bombing, July 27, 1996

The murder of Barnett Slepian byJames Charles Kopp, Oct. 23, 1998

Planned Parenthood bombing, Brookline, Massachusetts, 1994.

Suicide attack on IRS building in Austin, Texas, Feb. 18, 2010.

KKK terrorism/murder (the Klan are a religious group...)

The murder of Alan Berg, June 18, 1984

Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing, April 19, 1995.
(the motivation being partly Ruby Ridge so there's still a religious link)

Go back a little further than that and there's a reign of terrorism in the form of white supremist groups (using passages of the Bible to justify their bigotry) lynching black people, beating black people or homosexuals...

America may be strange... But it has in the last hundred years seen a lot of religious hatred from Christians... But because of who writes the news and because they weren't using the term as often it wasn't called "terrorism". But hanging someone in front of a burning cross... Or putting burning crosses in people's gardens to terrorise them... It was terrorism. Just because it was racist doesn't stop it being religious in nature - it was all justified with old testament passages on mixing of race.

There are STILL websites in the US for Christian worship that talk about the shock of a child wanting to date outside their race... And condemnation for the child in question...

In the US there is a massive militarised police force that puts a lot of Christian extremists off doing more than ranting these days - but those extremists are sitting on huge stockpiles of weapons waiting for a chance to do "God's work"

Let's breakdown the number of deaths caused and individual incidents over the last 20 years by each religions mentalists and then decide which one is the biggest issue to have to deal with.

OK go on then. What percentage of terrorist incidents in Europe in the past 20 years were by muslims, and what percentage by non-muslims (I know, I know, you will want to claim that all muslim incidents are done on the name of islam despite what the terrorists themselves claim, but please try not to).

ToneControl · July 2016

quarky said:

Ro_S said:

@quarky said:

- if 10% of muslims are terrorists (I assume that is your insinuation from the 90% you mention), why are the other 90% peaceful (and I have no idea where you get the idea that 10% of all muslims are involved in terrorism)? Do you think that is because those 90% are the ones who don't practice islam correctly and the 10% are the ones who do?
Second,
@ToneControl did not suggest that 10% of Muslims are terrorists. He posited that he perhaps 10% of Muslims follow a form of Islam that is not peaceful.

Well he suggested that only 90% were peaceful. So my insinuation is that the other 10% are not peaceful. If there is some kind of "third way" that is not "peaceful" or "not peaceful", that make up the other 10%, I am all ears waiting for an explanation.

Or in case you want to weasel out and claim that a significant proportion follow a violent form of Islam (although I haven't see many facts present at all on here to back up the claims made), which one?

Because by doing so, we have to ignore, or completely the professed motives and background of most of the people involved in the recent attacks. Actually, we can't ignore it, we need to pretend that there motives were actually different in some cases.

With the IRA in NI, no one would say that all Catholics were terrorists. However, a significant minority fully agreed with most of the IRA actions. A larger number empathised with them, whilst perhaps not endorsing them, and would not have dreamed of informing on them.

Same with the protestant terrorists. Some strong support, some lukewarm, some fear.

In the muslim world, there are all sorts of people. The question is "how many endorse or are content to tolerate Jihad?"
A simple google search turns up the first hit (I can be a bit sarky too, we can drop that if you like, I don't think it adds to the quality of debate): http://metrocosm.com/support-isis-muslim-world-perceptions-vs-reality/
so in many muslim countries, support for ISIS is around 10%
It's 21% in Syria, and we are seeing large scale migration from Syria into the EU.

Now, tell me again not to worry, because genocide, slavery and mass rape are all nothing to worry about, because social deprivation probably is the real trigger for that behaviour, and we can easily fix that. I don't see any other societies currently giving support to an organisation committing war crimes on an industrial scale.

So what's the best course of action then? Improvements in benefits and job prospects in French slums?

Myranda · July 2016

quarky said:

lloyd said:

Myranda said:

Christian terrorism? Bombing of abortion clinics in the US?

Catholics Vs Protestants?

The following were all by Christians in the name of God... Praises by "The Army of God" a group of far right radical Christians

Wisconsin Sikh Temple massacre, Aug. 5, 2012.

The murder of Dr. George Tiller, May 31, 2009

Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church shooting, July 27, 2008

The murder of Dr. John Britton, July 29, 1994.

The Centennial Olympic Park bombing, July 27, 1996

The murder of Barnett Slepian byJames Charles Kopp, Oct. 23, 1998

Planned Parenthood bombing, Brookline, Massachusetts, 1994.

Suicide attack on IRS building in Austin, Texas, Feb. 18, 2010.

KKK terrorism/murder (the Klan are a religious group...)

The murder of Alan Berg, June 18, 1984

Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing, April 19, 1995.
(the motivation being partly Ruby Ridge so there's still a religious link)

Go back a little further than that and there's a reign of terrorism in the form of white supremist groups (using passages of the Bible to justify their bigotry) lynching black people, beating black people or homosexuals...

America may be strange... But it has in the last hundred years seen a lot of religious hatred from Christians... But because of who writes the news and because they weren't using the term as often it wasn't called "terrorism". But hanging someone in front of a burning cross... Or putting burning crosses in people's gardens to terrorise them... It was terrorism. Just because it was racist doesn't stop it being religious in nature - it was all justified with old testament passages on mixing of race.

There are STILL websites in the US for Christian worship that talk about the shock of a child wanting to date outside their race... And condemnation for the child in question...

In the US there is a massive militarised police force that puts a lot of Christian extremists off doing more than ranting these days - but those extremists are sitting on huge stockpiles of weapons waiting for a chance to do "God's work"

Let's breakdown the number of deaths caused and individual incidents over the last 20 years by each religions mentalists and then decide which one is the biggest issue to have to deal with.

OK go on then. What percentage of terrorist incidents in Europe in the past 20 years were by muslims, and what percentage by non-muslims (I know, I know, you will want to claim that all muslim incidents are done on the name of islam despite what the terrorists themselves claim, but please try not to).

And...

Christian fundamentalists being less successful at murdering people is totally different to them not existing... Just because they got arrested or killed before they killed more people doesn't make them less of a zealous murderer.

People were trying to claim that it's only Muslims that do religious murder and religious terror... I highlighted a handful of such acts perpetrated by Christians and your response is to try and rank them in some form of Bastards Premiership and that Muslims are winning on goal difference...

The whole point is that just as most of the Christian world is mortified by the attitude of the Army of God nutters so too are the majority of Muslims mortified by the people using their faith to justify murder. And to claim that Christianity has some sort of moral high ground or is bloodless is disingenuous in the extreme.

lloyd · July 2016

I think you'll find that i specified death toll and number of attacks, so let's not blame it on poor execution (pun not intended) take a look at these incidents since 1990:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battles_and_other_violent_events_by_death_toll#Terrorist_attacks

the thing is is that I'm not saying that these people are representative of Islam as a whole, nor that Christians aren't cunts too or anything else, the point I'm trying to get across is that there's clearly an issue within Islam as it is people that claim to be Muslims that are carrying out the overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks in the last 20 or so years. Bringing up any other religions, cultures or what was going on 50 years ago or even bombings today carried out by Christians on abortion clinics doesn't alter the fact that.

Ro_S · July 2016

quarky said:

Ro_S said:

@quarky said:

- if 10% of muslims are terrorists (I assume that is your insinuation from the 90% you mention), why are the other 90% peaceful (and I have no idea where you get the idea that 10% of all muslims are involved in terrorism)? Do you think that is because those 90% are the ones who don't practice islam correctly and the 10% are the ones who do?

First,
There is no 'correct' and 'incorrect' way to practice a religion. That is an entirely subjective judgement. There are merely different forms and interpretations of a religion.
Your difficulty in understanding this is what is causing you to come out with naive, simplified and crass statements and arguments.

Second,
@ToneControl did not suggest that 10% of Muslims are terrorists. He posited that he perhaps 10% of Muslims follow a form of Islam that is not peaceful.

Well he suggested that only 90% were peaceful. So my insinuation is that the other 10% are not peaceful. If there is some kind of "third way" that is not "peaceful" or "not peaceful", that make up the other 10%, I am all ears waiting for an explanation.

Or in case you want to weasel out and claim that a significant proportion follow a violent form of Islam (although I haven't see many facts present at all on here to back up the claims made), which one?

You originally said that the supposed 10% of Muslims who follow a ''non peaceful'' form of Islam are all terrorists. I don't think all of the 10% are terrorists. If they were, then not many would be alive any more cos they'd be dead having blown themselves up or something. Some are terrorists. Some are ISIS 'soliders' in Iraq, Syria, etc. Some are non military. Many are civilians. Some are, for example, farmers. Some are women and children. Some go round preaching.

p.s. Go research Wahhabi Islam

lloyd · July 2016

Myranda said:

quarky said:

lloyd said:

Myranda said:

Christian terrorism? Bombing of abortion clinics in the US?

Catholics Vs Protestants?

The following were all by Christians in the name of God... Praises by "The Army of God" a group of far right radical Christians

Wisconsin Sikh Temple massacre, Aug. 5, 2012.

The murder of Dr. George Tiller, May 31, 2009

Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church shooting, July 27, 2008

The murder of Dr. John Britton, July 29, 1994.

The Centennial Olympic Park bombing, July 27, 1996

The murder of Barnett Slepian byJames Charles Kopp, Oct. 23, 1998

Planned Parenthood bombing, Brookline, Massachusetts, 1994.

Suicide attack on IRS building in Austin, Texas, Feb. 18, 2010.

KKK terrorism/murder (the Klan are a religious group...)

The murder of Alan Berg, June 18, 1984

Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing, April 19, 1995.
(the motivation being partly Ruby Ridge so there's still a religious link)

Go back a little further than that and there's a reign of terrorism in the form of white supremist groups (using passages of the Bible to justify their bigotry) lynching black people, beating black people or homosexuals...

America may be strange... But it has in the last hundred years seen a lot of religious hatred from Christians... But because of who writes the news and because they weren't using the term as often it wasn't called "terrorism". But hanging someone in front of a burning cross... Or putting burning crosses in people's gardens to terrorise them... It was terrorism. Just because it was racist doesn't stop it being religious in nature - it was all justified with old testament passages on mixing of race.

There are STILL websites in the US for Christian worship that talk about the shock of a child wanting to date outside their race... And condemnation for the child in question...

In the US there is a massive militarised police force that puts a lot of Christian extremists off doing more than ranting these days - but those extremists are sitting on huge stockpiles of weapons waiting for a chance to do "God's work"

Let's breakdown the number of deaths caused and individual incidents over the last 20 years by each religions mentalists and then decide which one is the biggest issue to have to deal with.

OK go on then. What percentage of terrorist incidents in Europe in the past 20 years were by muslims, and what percentage by non-muslims (I know, I know, you will want to claim that all muslim incidents are done on the name of islam despite what the terrorists themselves claim, but please try not to).

And...

Christian fundamentalists being less successful at murdering people is totally different to them not existing... Just because they got arrested or killed before they killed more people doesn't make them less of a zealous murderer.

People were trying to claim that it's only Muslims that do religious murder and religious terror... I highlighted a handful of such acts perpetrated by Christians and your response is to try and rank them in some form of Bastards Premiership and that Muslims are winning on goal difference...

The whole point is that just as most of the Christian world is mortified by the attitude of the Army of God nutters so too are the majority of Muslims mortified by the people using their faith to justify murder. And to claim that Christianity has some sort of moral high ground or is bloodless is disingenuous in the extreme.

What you list pale into insignificance in the grand scheme of things which is why I ranked it as I did.

Ive not said once that other religions don't do these things, it's just that Islam are the major perpetrators, again I feel I'm repeating myself, but just because other religions do it (on a much smaller scale) doesn't take away the gas or anything I've written.

quarky · July 2016

ToneControl said:

quarky said:

Ro_S said:

@quarky said:

- if 10% of muslims are terrorists (I assume that is your insinuation from the 90% you mention), why are the other 90% peaceful (and I have no idea where you get the idea that 10% of all muslims are involved in terrorism)? Do you think that is because those 90% are the ones who don't practice islam correctly and the 10% are the ones who do?
Second,
@ToneControl did not suggest that 10% of Muslims are terrorists. He posited that he perhaps 10% of Muslims follow a form of Islam that is not peaceful.

Well he suggested that only 90% were peaceful. So my insinuation is that the other 10% are not peaceful. If there is some kind of "third way" that is not "peaceful" or "not peaceful", that make up the other 10%, I am all ears waiting for an explanation.

Or in case you want to weasel out and claim that a significant proportion follow a violent form of Islam (although I haven't see many facts present at all on here to back up the claims made), which one?

Because by doing so, we have to ignore, or completely the professed motives and background of most of the people involved in the recent attacks. Actually, we can't ignore it, we need to pretend that there motives were actually different in some cases.

With the IRA in NI, no one would say that all Catholics were terrorists. However, a significant minority fully agreed with most of the IRA actions. A larger number empathised with them, whilst perhaps not endorsing them, and would not have dreamed of informing on them.

Same with the protestant terrorists. Some strong support, some lukewarm, some fear.

In the muslim world, there are all sorts of people. The question is "how many endorse or are content to tolerate Jihad?"
A simple google search turns up the first hit (I can be a bit sarky too, we can drop that if you like, I don't think it adds to the quality of debate): http://metrocosm.com/support-isis-muslim-world-perceptions-vs-reality/
so in many muslim countries, support for ISIS is around 10%
It's 21% in Syria, and we are seeing large scale migration from Syria into the EU.

Now, tell me again not to worry, because genocide, slavery and mass rape are all nothing to worry about, because social deprivation probably is the real trigger for that behaviour, and we can easily fix that. I don't see any other societies currently giving support to an organisation committing war crimes on an industrial scale.

So what's the best course of action then? Improvements in benefits and job prospects in French slums?

Ha ha. No, I don't mind your sarky comments. You guys come across as smart reasonable people, so I have no problem at all with it. I hope mine don't come across badly either!

"Support for ISIS" is again difficult I think, because it is like the referendum. Support means many different things to different people depending on what they learn/know. So of that 10%, how many would answer "Yes" to support of a caliphate and how many would support terrorism to get there? A caliphate is a perfectly legitimate aim for many muslims because that is just an area under islam rule, much as the Pope and Emperor ruled Eastern and Western Europe. I am sure many Catholics would want to see a return to papal authority, as they consider him to be gods infallible representative on Earth.

And I never said "don't worry". People should worry, but as we have seen, these recent terrorist acts have been a reaction to events in the ME, and you talk about poverty and social depravation, but actually, those are the solutions to the problem. THe fringe elements of Islam are financed from Saudi Arabia, who we in the West keep supporting, and keep giving money too. We deserve a hell of a lot of "credit" for creating the monster. And now it is like a hydra. OK, terrible comparison but "cutting off it's heads" is not helping, it making the problem worse. Maybe, just maybe, we could actually ask muslims in this country, in France, and in the Middle East what they want to do to resolve the issue, because bombing the fuck out of people clearly isn't working.

We need to accept that the fringe elements represent a miniscule percentage of muslims.

Muslim

All those sub-groups represent less than 1/10th of 1%.

Islam is just as much of a religion of peace as Christianity.
Islam is just as much of a religion of war as Christianity.

The fact that there are more violent incidents associate with muslims at the moment is not down to the religion, but down to the shit that is happening in the ME at the moment. And by (wrongly) making that tiny minority into the representatives of that faith, you are playing into the hands of the fundamentalist nut-cases.

Ro_S · July 2016

quarky said:

A caliphate is a perfectly legitimate aim for many muslims because that is just an area under islam rule, much as the Pope and Emperor ruled Eastern and Western Europe. I am sure many Catholics would want to see a return to papal authority, as they consider him to be gods infallible representative on Earth.

[......]

The fact that there are more violent incidents associate with muslims at the moment is not down to the religion, but down to the shit that is happening in the ME at the moment. And by (wrongly) making that tiny minority into the representatives of that faith, you are playing into the hands of the fundamentalist nut-cases.

Which of us here have been arguing that violent Islamic extremists are fully representatives of the islamic faith as a whole? I don't recall any of us saying that.

When has a Pope ruled Eastern or Western Europe? What?! Rubbish.

You think many modern catholics want a state ruled by the Pope? . What?!

Where did you find that terrible pie chart or graphic? And why are you continuing to portray ISIS and other Islamic extremists as not being Muslims?

ToneControl · July 2016

Myranda said:

quarky said:

o have to deal with.

OK go on then. What percentage of terrorist incidents in Europe in the past 20 years were by muslims, and what percentage by non-muslims (I know, I know, you will want to claim that all muslim incidents are done on the name of islam despite what the terrorists themselves claim, but please try not to).

And...

Christian fundamentalists being less successful at murdering people is totally different to them not existing... Just because they got arrested or killed before they killed more people doesn't make them less of a zealous murderer.

People were trying to claim that it's only Muslims that do religious murder and religious terror... I highlighted a handful of such acts perpetrated by Christians and your response is to try and rank them in some form of Bastards Premiership and that Muslims are winning on goal difference...

The whole point is that just as most of the Christian world is mortified by the attitude of the Army of God nutters so too are the majority of Muslims mortified by the people using their faith to justify murder. And to claim that Christianity has some sort of moral high ground or is bloodless is disingenuous in the extreme.

I don't think anyone has claimed that Organised Christianity has caused no deaths. Very few deaths recently though
btw I do think the OT &NT are less provocative than the Islamic texts

My concern is the large number of people following fundamentalist Islamic teachings, and committing mass murder, genocide, rape, and taking slaves. If their numbers and actions were the same as the Christian killers, I would not be so scared

My point is that I think talking away the problem as just a reflection of oppression is a mistake: I think the violence is feeding on the religion

ToneControl · July 2016

Ro_S said:

You originally said that the supposed 10% of Muslims who follow a ''non peaceful'' form of Islam are all terrorists. I don't think all of the 10% are terrorists. If they were, then not many would be alive any more cos they'd be dead having blown themselves up or something. Some are terrorists. Some are ISIS 'soliders' in Iraq, Syria, etc. Some are non military. Many are civilians. Some are, for example, farmers. Some are women and children. Some go round preaching.

p.s. Go research Wahhabi Islam

and Wahhabi Islam is worrying - it's a very old-school non-moderate Islam, and AFAIK funds much of the mosque-building programmes in the UK

ToneControl · July 2016

quarky said:

ToneControl said:

Ha ha. No, I don't mind your sarky comments. You guys come across as smart reasonable people, so I have no problem at all with it. I hope mine don't come across badly either!

"Support for ISIS" is again difficult I think, because it is like the referendum. Support means many different things to different people depending on what they learn/know. So of that 10%, how many would answer "Yes" to support of a caliphate and how many would support terrorism to get there? A caliphate is a perfectly legitimate aim for many muslims because that is just an area under islam rule, much as the Pope and Emperor ruled Eastern and Western Europe. I am sure many Catholics would want to see a return to papal authority, as they consider him to be gods infallible representative on Earth.

And I never said "don't worry". People should worry, but as we have seen, these recent terrorist acts have been a reaction to events in the ME, and you talk about poverty and social depravation, but actually, those are the solutions to the problem. THe fringe elements of Islam are financed from Saudi Arabia, who we in the West keep supporting, and keep giving money too. We deserve a hell of a lot of "credit" for creating the monster. And now it is like a hydra. OK, terrible comparison but "cutting off it's heads" is not helping, it making the problem worse. Maybe, just maybe, we could actually ask muslims in this country, in France, and in the Middle East what they want to do to resolve the issue, because bombing the fuck out of people clearly isn't working.

We need to accept that the fringe elements represent a miniscule percentage of muslims.

All those sub-groups represent less than 1/10th of 1%.

Islam is just as much of a religion of peace as Christianity.
Islam is just as much of a religion of war as Christianity.

The fact that there are more violent incidents associate with muslims at the moment is not down to the religion, but down to the shit that is happening in the ME at the moment. And by (wrongly) making that tiny minority into the representatives of that faith, you are playing into the hands of the fundamentalist nut-cases.

Who said ISIS are the representatives of Islam?
I said that , contrary to many people saying that ISIS are not true muslims, they are truer to the original Islamic texts than most modern muslims. ISIS themselves claim to be truer Muslims, and kill moderate muslims as punishment.

There are 2.2b Christians. If 0.1% of those = 2.2m people were to set up a death cult state and started committing massive war crimes based on ancient biblical texts, I'd have a lot to say about that too

Ro_S · July 2016

^

Saudi Arabia spends a lot in the West on spreading Wahhabi Islam. They finance mosques, centres, schooling, preaching and literature.

About 80% of USA mosques are under Wahhabi preaching influence. I dunno what the equivalent % figure is in UK, but it's about 1,800 mosques.

lloyd · July 2016

People were trying to claim that it's only Muslims that do religious murder and religious terror...

@Myranda Who claimed that?

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Another attack in France...

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