Another attack in France...

Chalky

Old men seek a cause to live for, young men seek a cause to die for.  Twas ever thus.

ToneControl

quarky said:

LOL. Right OK. So find me more up to date stats then.

It is a little difficult to keep up in this thread. Firstly the terrorists were doing it in the name of Islam (despite the statements from the ones in Paris which completely contract that, and the others didn't live an Islamic lifestyle). Then it all the fault of the Koran. But when you point out the bible has just as much bile, that is dismissed as being in the OT, then dismissed because Jesus wasn't referring to the OT laws after all, even those they are the same ones in the Torah. Then other passages are dismissed because they are in the bible, are in the NT, but are in Revelations. Wow.

But wait, there's more!

When talking about evil done in the name of Christianity, those are dismissed because they were not in the past twenty years, and the ones that are, for some reason don't count, because apparently they are lunatics and such a small %. Yet when I show the % of lunatic muslims, that too is dismissed, because of apparent support (yes, a whole 9%) of muslims who are favourable to ISIS in Pakistan, a country with poor access to information, and a terrible relationship with the West (no wonder Pakistan gets bombed by the US regularly, but lets just ignore that).

But wait, there is still more!

So Lloyd says we should break down terrorist incidents for the past 20 years, and presents a list from Wikipedia. When I show stats from terrorism in Europe in recent years though, because despite showing a massive % of terrorism not being related to islam, they are dismissed as being too old (only going to 2013).

But still more!

Wahhabi Islam is labelled as the problem (with some validity it has to be said), but this is the same sect that makes up less than 1% of all muslims, and is pushed aggressive into other regions by Saudi Arabia. The same Saudi Arabia that receives weapons and support from the West.

But don't label the problem as anything to do with us bombing the crap out of the ME, killing women and children, and supporting the lunatics in Saudi Arabia, and huge problems with marginalisation in parts of Europe. Oh no, *that* is not the problem, the problem is obviously islam.

Sorry, don't buy it.

I'm not entirely sure what your overall opinion is. It appears to be that Islam is no more harmful than Christianity, and that  atrocities committed by Muslims are simply random reactions to personal  experience.
I can't  find this consistent with what is happening right now in  Daesh/ISIS-held territory

Since ISIS/Daesh was created, we've seen a recent massive increase in  islamist terrorism in  Europe. To  "disprove" this, you given statistics from before ISIS was created

Tell me about the  last time Christianity  was used as a doctrine to  create anything similar to  ISIS/Daesh
i.e. a cultish state set up using the  Old testament literally to define its laws and behaviour
There's a few weird cults in Africa, but nothing threatening countries across the world

I'm worried about massive scale war crimes and terrorism now. Currently, it's overwhelmingly being done in the name of Islam. But you think that's irrelevant, because some Christians also kill, on a smaller scale.

You acknowledge the Wahabi problem. What should be done about it? Or so we just make a Corbynite protest speech "it's all the West's fault".
The US and UK bombed the shit out of Germany and Japan in ww2: I haven't seen any holy wars coming from those countries is a massive long-lasting terrorist Jihad the normal outcome after a war in Christian countries?  

I entered this debate on the issue of people asserting that these killings were  not  influenced by Islam. I still disagree with that idea. I have never heard of anyone driving trucks into hundreds of civilians in a  peaceful country just because they were a bit pissed off or a bit mentally ill - you'd need some kind of doctrine providing moral justification  to commit such an act

Ro_S

Sambostar said:

I don't care how many deaths there are to be honest, I'd rather people were in touch with themselves and their ancestors and forefathers and appreciated their lives in the moment, rather than making grandiose gesticulating bullshite wading statements about harmonious wankerism.

And woman shouldn't wear underpants

And nobody has any sympathy until it happens to you, let's be honest. It's human nature and the persecuted by empathy theorists should fight back with an axe and waken those to reality.  A sharpened axe through the forearm.

The unaffected gesticulate about the righteous way whilst the afflicted are still and silent.

how much had you been drinking on Saturday night before you posted that?

ToneControl

quarky said:

LOL. Right OK. So find me more up to date stats then.

It is a little difficult to keep up in this thread. Firstly the terrorists were doing it in the name of Islam (despite the statements from the ones in Paris which completely contract that, 

could you help me out with references for this, I can't find anything that backs up your assertion

I did find this though:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/paris-attacks-islamic-state-releases-video-9-paris-attackers-1539813

ToneControl

I was hoping we'd get onto what might be done to reduce the risk of mass killings and war crimes

So far it's just quibbling about whether Christianity used to be just as  bad as Islam in this respect.
I can end that discussion now: yes it was, now it's not. No one can change the past, so where is the merit in  attaching blame to people and cultures for what their ancestors did if they are not  behaving the same ?

Is Islam is just a convenient disguise for all the current killings, which would have happened anyway? I think the evidence says no.

Sambostar

Sterilization.  Reduce the numbers of people dependant on resources and you reduce the risk of mass killings and genocide and disenfranchised young men with deluded ideologies.  Add to this, then clone sexy women and you have the basics of a fool proof sustainable peace plan.  It starts here though.

Although I think @Chalky hit the nail on the head, it's in our genes, our evolutionary make up and it's bigger than we are.

Ro_S

Clarky said:

Ro_S said:

Here's some stats ...

So far in 2016:

Over 1,000 Islamic terror attacks, across dozens of countries worldwide.  Killing over 11,000 people and injuring 14,000 more.

that stat simply means that a handful of nut cases have been busy

You're saying over 1,000 attacks so far in 2016 constitutes just a handful of nutters?  Wtf.  They must have many lives each.

Is ISIS just a small group of nutters, too?    

TheBlueWolf

Clarky said:

Ro_S said:

quarky said:

Err, non-muslim Westerners?

You believe that the majority of terrorist attacks in the West in the last few years are committed by non-Muslims?    I wanna see those stats.

here's a thought… just an idea… nothing more..

there are some people that are for whatever reason somehow messed up in the head..
and they will find some reason for going loopy can causing some sort of mass killing..

in the US there have been many cases of people going on the rampage in a school or shopping mall with guns killing lots of people at random.. but if he's not a muslim it's simply a nutcase going nuts…
and it's happened here in the UK too several times..
and of course that fella in Sweden…

it is my personal belief that these sorts of people will latch onto any sort of idea or ideology to justify / fuel their urge to go on such a rampage… could be religion, or an ideology, or simply hatred at the world because something / someone fkd their life up…
if someone causes a mass killing that is not a muslim, they're a nutter
if someone causes a mass killing and they are a muslim, they're a terrorist

the only difference in my opinion, is that the nutter using islam as their 'cause' will be encouraged to do so by organisations like ISIS because they like the press it generates.. 
and where non-muslim nutters are acting alone, organisations like ISIS will be like a magnet to nutters that just happen to be muslim..

I know this cannot be true for all cases… but the world is not short of very disturbed / angry people..

@Clarky some fair points

Based on recent reports it seems the guy in Nice was acting alone but ISIS have claimed he's one of theirs. That may not be true but all publicity is good right?

I've never considered those who go on the rampage 'In the name of' as actual followers of any religion; a warped view of that religion certainly, but not representative of those who practice a religion but don't feel the need to kill others because it gets them a bunch of nubile virgins, a decent place in heaven etc.

Also I consider it to be an act of terror whether the perpetrators claim various religious beliefs or not as a motive. What they're doing is to create fear, terror and mayhem.

Ro_S

TheBlueWolf said:

Based on recent reports it seems the guy in Nice was acting alone but ISIS have claimed he's one of theirs. 

So?   Many Islamic extremist terror attacks are undertaken without the control or knowledge of ISIS in Iraq. 

TheBlueWolf said:

I've never considered those who go on the rampage 'In the name of' as actual followers of any religion; a warped view of that religion certainly, but not representative of those who practice a religion but don't feel the need to kill others because it gets them a bunch of nubile virgins, a decent place in heaven etc.

You need to accept that those who do such acts are followers of a religion.  

They are followers of a form of Islam.  There are difference forms of Islam; the one they follow is one of them.  And that form is preached in mosques in this country.
You may view their form of Islam as ''warped'', but that's irrelevant.

They regard their form of Islam as being correct and they are directly inspired by their religious beliefs to kill.

quarky

ToneControl said:

I'm not entirely sure what your overall opinion is.

My opinion if that Islam is no worse than Christianity. Both have pretty horrible holy texts (add the Torah to that too, we all know that as a general rule, religion is a fucked up notion) that can be misused. The current terrorism issues are more to do with bombing places and people that these marginalised suspectable troubled people feel an affiliation with, rather than the fact that they have an Arabic name, or may come from Africa/ME, or have family from here. And blaming Islam as the reason, for the terrorism is wrong on so many levels. Not because there are fucked-up muslims, but because that is not what drives these people to do this. They already have issues in their lives in France and religion just gives them an "out". Very few of them seem to actually attend a mosque or follow an islamic lifestyle. And until the West begins to accept that, the problem isn't going to go away. Calling the problem an islamic problem shows such a failure to understand the issues that there is no hope until that changes.

ISIS has been around since 2004. The stats I posted are certainly not from before then! And that probably shows that trying to change peoples mind by killing civilians (not matter how much the Western nations may try to avoid that) obviously isn't helping.

Unfortunately, it will take talking. If we are going to get involved in the ME, we need to understand what our own people in Europe who identify with them want. We will need to sort out the massive exclusion and unemployment problems in Europe. We will need to understand what the people in the ME actually want, and stop supporting countries like Saudi Arabia which is the origin of a lot of these fundamentalist teachings.

ToneControl

quarky said:

ToneControl said:

I'm not entirely sure what your overall opinion is.

My opinion if that Islam is no worse than Christianity. Both have pretty horrible holy texts (add the Torah to that too, we all know that as a general rule, religion is a fucked up notion) that can be misused. The current terrorism issues are more to do with bombing places and people that these marginalised suspectable troubled people feel an affiliation with, rather than the fact that they have an Arabic name, or may come from Africa/ME, or have family from here. And blaming Islam as the reason, for the terrorism is wrong on so many levels. Not because there are fucked-up muslims, but because that is not what drives these people to do this. They already have issues in their lives in France and religion just gives them an "out". Very few of them seem to actually attend a mosque or follow an islamic lifestyle. And until the West begins to accept that, the problem isn't going to go away. Calling the problem an islamic problem shows such a failure to understand the issues that there is no hope until that changes.

ISIS has been around since 2004. The stats I posted are certainly not from before then! And that probably shows that trying to change peoples mind by killing civilians (not matter how much the Western nations may try to avoid that) obviously isn't helping.

Unfortunately, it will take talking. If we are going to get involved in the ME, we need to understand what our own people in Europe who identify with them want. We will need to sort out the massive exclusion and unemployment problems in Europe. We will need to understand what the people in the ME actually want, and stop supporting countries like Saudi Arabia which is the origin of a lot of these fundamentalist teachings.

OK, we got there in the end
you believe  that Islam is a benign influence, no different to modern Christianity, even though it is is cited as the influence in almost all current religiously-influenced killings  and mass war crimes
I think that, fortunately for only a minority, Islam is the  justification  for mass murder, genocide, slavery and mass rape

Isis  may have had started  earlier, but it had zero influence in 2004
check wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant
"ISIL gained prominence in early 2014......"

Let's cut to the chase:
please tell me what the solution is

ToneControl

and to give a bit of background, until recently, I too thought that Islam was just a "religion of peace", but evidence has changed my opinion - for some - 10% or less it seems, Islam is a more militant, aggressive  force

lloyd

Jihad, Fatwahs, "Honour" Killings. Is there anything comparable, that are actively pursued in modern times in any other religions?

p90fool

lloyd said:

Jihad, Fatwahs, "Honour" Killings. Is there anything comparable, that are actively pursued in modern times in any other religions?

They're not in modern times, they started 600 years after Christianity. 

It's their 14th century, if you compare it to the Christian 14th century the two match pretty well exactly in their childish, fucked up retardedness. 

ToneControl

p90fool said:

lloyd said:

Jihad, Fatwahs, "Honour" Killings. Is there anything comparable, that are actively pursued in modern times in any other religions?

They're not in modern times, they started 600 years after Christianity. 

It's their 14th century, if you compare it to the Christian 14th century the two match pretty well exactly in their childish, fucked up retardedness. 

that's not an excuse, the world has to align now. Otherwise international war crimes would have no meaning 

Also, Muslims find this insulting, understandably - I assume there's no fixed period of time needed to reach modern civilisation

p90fool

I don't fucking care if they find it insulting tbh,  anyone in the 21st century who has their thoughts and actions dictated to them by an imaginary friend the rest of us can't see doesn't deserve any respect IMO.

I'm heartily sick of all religion, I wish they'd all just fuck off to their imaginary paradise without trying to take civilised, rational people with them.  

lloyd

quarky said:

ToneControl said:

I'm not entirely sure what your overall opinion is.

My opinion if that Islam is no worse than Christianity. Both have pretty horrible holy texts (add the Torah to that too, we all know that as a general rule, religion is a fucked up notion) that can be misused. The current terrorism issues are more to do with bombing places and people that these marginalised suspectable troubled people feel an affiliation with, rather than the fact that they have an Arabic name, or may come from Africa/ME, or have family from here. And blaming Islam as the reason, for the terrorism is wrong on so many levels. Not because there are fucked-up muslims, but because that is not what drives these people to do this. They already have issues in their lives in France and religion just gives them an "out". Very few of them seem to actually attend a mosque or follow an islamic lifestyle. And until the West begins to accept that, the problem isn't going to go away. Calling the problem an islamic problem shows such a failure to understand the issues that there is no hope until that changes.

ISIS has been around since 2004. The stats I posted are certainly not from before then! And that probably shows that trying to change peoples mind by killing civilians (not matter how much the Western nations may try to avoid that) obviously isn't helping.

Unfortunately, it will take talking. If we are going to get involved in the ME, we need to understand what our own people in Europe who identify with them want. We will need to sort out the massive exclusion and unemployment problems in Europe. We will need to understand what the people in the ME actually want, and stop supporting countries like Saudi Arabia which is the origin of a lot of these fundamentalist teachings.

I think that you massively underestimate the importance Islam plays in these peoples lives-it is central to them, it defines them, it is something that governs every day life, from what they wear, eat and when they do it.

To then turn around and say that Islam is an incidental factor is wrong IMO. 

Even if like you say, it's just an "out" for them, why is it that it is overwhelmingly Muslims that are taking this "out"?

Evilmags

Trying to compare the two belief systems or justify the behavior of one by referring to another is somewhat childish. The relative lack of brutality in Western civilization can be traced back to the Enlightenment, and figures such as Hume, Locke, Smith ect. The separation between church and state is something that has happened in Europe since the state started taking over the formation and enforcement of law from the Church. IE a lot of social development cannot be explained by religion alone? 

A large part of that explanation can be found in the fact that in Islamic countries Islam reaches deep into the heart of every social institution, something not the case in Western countries with Christianity. A second part is that some of the most primitive societies have been enriched  way beyond their natural level of productivity by oil. The UK became rich by being an industrial and financial power, as did most of Europe. Oil apart every Islamic country is poor. But none of those countries had evolved the social institutions necessary to provide any balance. Religion becomes socially all consuming. It confers status and power while adding certainty.

As sensible precautions to this the UK can do a few things.

1) Stop Saudi Arabia funding mosques.
2) Only fund mosques with formally UK trained Imams.

oaf

You've sort of touched on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse There are examples from lots of countries/periods/cultures in the Wikipedia page and some good articles on this on the Economist site too.

Axe_meister

People turn to religion if they are desperate and can't find a way out of the shit.
I'm not talking about popping into church for a quick sing song/glug of wine.
But as a kind of rule/self help book to try and help them. It gives them a sense of community with people in the same boat.
Unless you have money and/or a job life in the ME must be really shit (bad enough in our western society) the differences between the haves and have nots being amplified by the Internet/TV, etc.
Alas the only solution is to give people some dignity, a job, a full belly and a roof over their heads and peace.
Bombing the shut out of them and forcing our way of life on them is not the solution.
We should not even been seen to be interfering/helping but give them the feeling they are helping themselves despite the west. But for this to happen the ME needs education and the means.

Thr same applies to these home grown terrorists.

How the hell we do it I don't know.