Can Someone Please Explain to me Strat Prices?

andyoz

I'd say the old Fender workers would be a having a quiet chuckle if they could see what their creations fetch now.  Weren't they knocking them out in a similar manner to bits of furniture at the time?  You lot over there do the necks, we'll do the bodies and then meet up somewhere in the middle with a few screws...

I'm yet to see 50's furniture appreciate like Strats do.

Wazmeister

Great photo mate !

Wazmeister

I've only ever played one good 70s Strat, and it was very unusual and a belter. A mate of mine has a large head 70s Strat, which has been stripped of its paint and lacquered.

It is a hardtail and is one of the heaviest guitars Ive ever held. Les Paul or otherwise. It is stupid heavy, but sounds absolutely amazing. It is actually NOT Strat sounding, but a mix of a Les Paul and Tele to my ears. Go figure...

I've played some great Custom Shops, some average ones too. Another mate has a cracking Mexican, which has been set up superbly. I love, as most of you know, some of the Masterbuilt stuff. Mine is simply yards above anything Ive played...I'll have to pitch it against @Gassage beauty...

The MB is on the right here, along with a CS '56 on the left, I owned which was stunning. Now owned and thankfully loved by @nickb_boy ;;

http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q493/Warren3333/Masterbuilt Strat 63/GS1.jpg

http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q493/Warren3333/Masterbuilt Strat 63/P1040151.jpg

andyoz

Looks like this now I think...I'm not singling out Fender BTW.

guitars4you

Gassage said:

guitars4you said:

Most/many top players now own gig and work with C/Shop and Masterbuilt models inc Gilmour, Beck, Marvin, Clapton, Kenny Wayne Sheppard, John Mayer, Eric Johnson etc etc

Mark,

Can assure you DG used only the Black Strat (which, let's face it, is a 70 body, an 82 Dan Smith neck and all sorts of mishmash of hardware), the 1955 Esquire, the 1956 Bigsby clad Gold Top and a 1952 Gibson acoustic on tour this year. No CS or modern stuff at all. (Black strat has a SSL1C-DG in bridge and original, (not CS) 69 grey backs in middle and neck.

He also used 2 lap steels- the old red Jedson for the open Open Em chord, E B E G B E and the blonde Fender Deluxe 6 for open G chord- D G D G B E, and a Taylor nylon strung for the outro of High Hopes.

He carried a spare CS Black Strat (unused) and the #2 Red 57 RI (also unused- #1's neck is now on the black strat.)

The only CS guitar of his used on tour was his Baritone Telecaster (Bass VI with Tele body and Bigsby)

The black strat neck is now almost bereft of lacquer on the fretboard.- like hardly any on the top note side.

That DG Black Strat is a law on to itself isn't it - if any FB member had hacked and cultivated the Strat to the same level I wonder what value we'd all place on it - sub £1K I assume

I know DG has one or two CS models and I dare say guys like that come and go with 'touring' set-ups - my point was that most of those guys no longer tour and work with 'vintage Strats' - Those that still owned or own Vintage models have had various custom work carried out on them to 'enrich the performance', so they are not as was

I know a year or so ago M Landau was over and played his CS model exclussively

We all no some old guitars are good but many aren't

I sold maybe 2 years ago a Strat - original 64 neck and body - stripped to bare wood - All Fat boys guitar parts throughout on hardware and scratchplate - amalfitano pickups - refret - bloomin awesome to play + top notch tonal quality - So a large part of the guitar was not original so what value do you put it out for - sold it within 1 day for £2K

That 75 Strat on my site at the moment plays well etc - but not original - players grade and less than £1600 so effectively CS money

I think it gets harder to justify over 3K and certainly over 6K for most of us when CS and MB are so good

downbytheriver

Gassage said:

Where are the bargains?
70s
US AVRI
Eric Johnson (early ones)
Custom Shop standard ones- choose colour wisely.

What are overpriced?
Maple caps and masterbuilt

Best investment;
early 70's, esp 1970 4 bolters with rosewood (3500-4500)
preCBS players- some bargains around if you really haggle
Squier JV's- these will be worth a fortune in yrs to come.

I would say that the above is spectacularly correct. 

I've owned something in excess of twenty CS Strats and I have never played a CS that was less than a damned good guitar. If you want one that will keep its value well, go for a vintage correct one. 

On on top of those I have owned probably another 30 Fender Strats and a couple of Tokais (early 80s). God knows how many I have played but this has all been distilled down to.... 

My my three main Strats are a CS 60 reissue (the best Strat I have ever played, team built or not), a 1962 body refin (poly) with a replacement scratchplate, replacement volume pot and a rewound bridge pickup which is probably the second best Strat I've ever played - it's not valuable enough to be truly scared of gigging, and a FSR American Standard with a solid rosewood neck - considering its cost this one represented superb value for money and you don't see many about - maybe one that will appreciate. 

The one one that got away was a 1972 with a destroyed finish and brass parts which I slowly put back to all original (apart from the paint). This was a tremendous guitar but the guy who sold it to me wanted to buy it back and he's been a proper mate over the years so.... but it didconvince me that early 70s Strats can be extremely good. 

Gassage

I've been so lucky to own 5 amazing strats in the last 5 or 6 years- my two pre CBS, 2, cunnetto's and a DG relic that was one of the proto's.

My two preCBS sound a world apart- the sunbust slab sustains for days and is a powerhouse- the Sonic Blue is more lightweight stratty (round lam? Maybe something to do with it.

I hated the DG strat - the neck wasn't right at all for me. Too narrow.

Now, a strat is a relatively simple guitar. But people make mistakes in what they THINK sounds good.

Here's some common stuff-

"I want a really thin neck and a low action" - next day "This thing sounds really dead and lightweight.
Strats need a good sized neck and a medium action.

"I want super powerful pickups" Really? So, those other two you are not using- how much do you think they're preventing the string from vibrating? Low-medium output on resonant wood sound amazing and are the way forward. It's no coincidence the low output 69-71 pups are so reveared. Buy something else if you wanna shred. High output pickups stop a strat resonanting like a strat should.

"When I put a 2-post on it doesn't sound the same" Course not- a vintage trem touches the body with a big surface area- more resonance.

I could whitter on about the crap talked about strats for hours.

But the point I wanted to make- I made a partsa for 150 quid with some EMG's. It was fantastic. Great tone, great resonance- simply cos I stuck to the Strat recipe, which works.

So, most strats are decent as long as you don't mess around with the original formula and try to make them something they're not.

DrJazzTap

downbytheriver said:

a FSR American Standard with a solid rosewood neck - considering its cost this one represented superb value for money and you don't see many about - maybe one that will appreciate. 

Snap! I lusted after this one and drove to guitarvillage twice in two weeks from Bristol.

Voxman

richardhomer said:

Voxman said:
As someone who owns a nice '69 Hardtail Strat, I have to agree!  It's a nice guitar but there's no way I'd pay upwards of £5k for it (easily its 'value', even with a non-original scratch plate, extra 'tree', and 5-way).  In terms of a lovely players guitar, a Custom Shop is the biz because they're made with a care and attention to detail that probably didn't apply to most of the originals other than perhaps a relative handful of earlier pre-CBS Strats.  I've played a few CS Strats (inc 68/69's) and I think they are better built guitars than my original that sound at least as good, if not better!

I played a 1970 hardtail in a North West based vintage dealer last year.

It was sunburst (the most common finish), had a replacement (incorrect) b/w/b scratchplate, some wiring mods and a non-original case. They wanted £5500 for it....

An 'ok' rather than great guitar from a playing/tonal perspective - and not collectors grade either.

They sold it, incidentally....

Yup, I'm not surprised - there's still huge demand for anything 'vintage', and people will pay for the age/street cred rather than the inherent quality.  In fact, your post has prompted me to up the insurance on mine (I also don't have the original case sadly) because it's a custom colour and the maple neck is a rarer custom order variant with no 'skunk stripe' and a maple capped board (just like Jimi Hendrix' 1968 Strat minus the trem).  

Gassage

@Voxman

My biggest issue is

Vintage = good; which is bollocks.

The truth is vintage = variance and a minefield of viewing through rose tinted specs.

When I decided to blow a load on the 1960, I played probably 20 preCBS strats. 5 were awful- like shocking; some were average, some very good, but 3 or 4 were utterly sublime and the one I bought feels like part of my body when I play it. (penis extn) The best ones are untouchable, but that does not mean the lesser ones are any better than a good AVRI/CS.

One thing I do believe is that old well cared for strats have had so many set ups that things like intonation etc should be spot on. All the flaws should have been ironed out.

impmann

Gassage said:

@Voxman

My biggest issue is

Vintage = good; which is bollocks.

The truth is vintage = variance and a minefield of viewing through rose tinted specs.

When I decided to blow a load on the 1960, I played probably 20 preCBS strats. 5 were awful- like shocking; some were average, some very good, but 3 or 4 were utterly sublime and the one I bought feels like part of my body when I play it. (penis extn) The best ones are untouchable, but that does not mean the lesser ones are any better than a good AVRI/CS.

One thing I do believe is that old well cared for strats have had so many set ups that things like intonation etc should be spot on. All the flaws should have been ironed out.

I'd go along with this 100%.

I'd also say that having played 99% of the CS Strats in Coda recently... there is a lot of variation. There were no 'bad' ones, but some suited me better than others.

As far as "old is better" goes... I had a '65 Strat in Sonic Blue at one point. I spent everything I didn't have in the world to buy it and it was... OK. It sounded alright and played alright but it never gave me 'the fizz' (to use James May's metaphor). I realised I was playing an early 90s USA Standard far more than the '65 and so I sold it... nothing 'wrong' with it, just nothing 'great' about it.

Gassage

I wanted to make one last point:

The 1958 pic of the factory (I think that's the 3rd one he had)  made me remember this- right in Fullerton there was a machine shop who did presswork and light metalwork called Race and Olmsted.

Their impact on the guitar world is huge, yet we've never heard of them. Leo was big mates with the owners and anything he wanted protoyping, he'd toddle off and ask them to make it, usually from pressed sheet steel.

They made virtually all of the amp chassis for the old amps and the control plates too.

Forrest White cited them as the single biggest influence on Leo's design thinking cos if they couldn't make it, he'd redesign it.

Little things that make such a difference to a tele, jag, strat etc can be put down to the proximity of R+O to Fender HQ and the fact Leo liked the the people there.

So here's a list off the top of my head of things they co-designed, made or prototyped for Leo:

Tele Bridge
The backs to Kluson tuners prototype
String trees
Strap Buttons
Tele Bridge ferrules
Tele Control plates
Strats- whole bridge and trem assempby and , most importantly, saddles.
jags/Jazzers- trem, bridge, Jag control plated
COvers on Fender bass pups
Tele pick up covers.

Their contribution to the Fender range and sound is huge and yet they're unknown.

guitars4you

@impmann  I'd also say that having played 99% of the CS Strats in Coda recently... there is a lot of variation. There were no 'bad' ones, but some suited me better

That just about sums it up - the variation is not about a build quality or negative issues - it is just about the one that speaks back to you - Some are more spanky - some more mellow - some with a higher acoustic pitch and some lower - fatter necks etc etc - subtle but effective variations

Voxman

Gassage, also with you 100%!  Do you really think a '69 maple capped neck Strat could be £7-10K?  

Another point on 'vintage' strats etc is dating (lets assume the guitar is otherwise legit).  The neck plate numbers are actually the least accurate method and can easily be a year out either way.  Fender used to keep neck plates in a big wooden box and pull these out at random!  Neck dates are much more reliable (plus matching original hardware, p/up dates etc).  

Gassage

Voxman said:

Gassage, also with you 100%!  

Another point on 'vintage' strats etc is dating (lets assume the guitar is otherwise legit).  The neck plate numbers are actually the least accurate method and can easily be a year out either way.  Fender used to keep neck plates in a big wooden box and pull these out at random!  Neck dates are much more reliable (plus matching original hardware, p/up dates etc).  

They also had the habit of refiling when they got below a line in the part bin (tea chests in fact) and that line was about 20% left.

It is not uncommon to find the variance you suggest. THe neck and body of my 60 are 3 months apart- the neck is younger. The srl number (44434) is early 60.

EDIT: one of the most stunning strats I've played in ages is a Greco copy! It was superb!!!!

guitars4you

Voxman said:

Gassage, also with you 100%!  

Another point on 'vintage' strats etc is dating (lets assume the guitar is otherwise legit).  The neck plate numbers are actually the least accurate method and can easily be a year out either way.  Fender used to keep neck plates in a big wooden box and pull these out at random!  Neck dates are much more reliable (plus matching original hardware, p/up dates etc).  

Fender did not date and make guitars as such - they made components and assembled accordingly - Lots of transition issues can make things awkward regarding dating a guitar but the neck, with back up from pot dates and pick up dates tends to be the way most would use to date a Fender - Yet the Mecano nature of a Fender, coupled with forgeries and replica parts makes it so easy for unscrupulous sellers or indeed the un-knowledgeable to mislead a potential buyer 

I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve) - just noticed your footer as well @Voxman ;- I love that line 

Richardj

The most comfortable to play Strat I have is my '90 MiM I have had from new. The most versatile Strat I have is the '09 Highway One I picked up recently and now sports a HSS pickup set from Oil City.

The biggest surprise is the MiM Roadworn '50s I recently got.  It could be my perfect Strat and is light years better than any of the many US Standard/Deluxe/Artist Strats I have had.  We are in a golden age of quality at the moment.  It isn't always about how much it cost. 

Gassage

I have a Jan 65 dated spag logo tele neck with pearloid dots that I am assured is original. It was just 'what they had' during that period up to the sale.

Anyone seen a neck like that before?

Gassage

Someone asked re Maple Caps.

This one is 8k I think. It's the Hendrix thing. Angel are OK too pricewise.

http://www.angelmusicguitars.com/Vintage_Guitar/202/1969_Fender_Stratocaster_maple_cap_neck.html

Voxman

Gassage said:

Someone asked re Maple Caps.

This one is 8k I think. It's the Hendrix thing. Angel are OK too pricewise.

http://www.angelmusicguitars.com/Vintage_Guitar/202/1969_Fender_Stratocaster_maple_cap_neck.html

Thanks Gassage - t'were me!  Wow, I think I need to up the insurance cover on mine!