Can Someone Please Explain to me Strat Prices?

guitars4you

Gassage said:

Question

Laces. Who likes?

I love them especially more standard colours - less so some of the snazzy metallic - I like the neck profile on them and the 'softer/mellow' voice of the Lace p/ups

crunchman

@Voxman a hardtail will be a bit different.  I think the trem is a major part of what makes a Strat a Strat though. There is a kind of natural reverb (for want of a better word) from the trem springs vibrating.

Voxman

crunchman said:

@Voxman a hardtail will be a bit different.  I think the trem is a major part of what makes a Strat a Strat though. There is a kind of natural reverb (for want of a better word) from the trem springs vibrating.

I'd suggest the rear cavity is probably more relevant here than just the trem springs vibrating, but I agree a trem has an effect on tone.  However, mine is very vibrant/resonant and still sounds very much like a Strat - but without the 'harshness/brittleness' you can get with some Strats.  I realise that Strat's with the trem are much more the 'norm' but It's interesting nonetheless that some players (eg Robert Cray) actually prefer hardtails - and his tone ain't bad!  Possibly it's because they don't need a trem and prefer the greater tuning stability.  Others, like Clapton, prefer to block the trem so that they don't compromise the tuning stability but still benefit from some of the tonal elements of a Strat fitted with a trem (although I don't think you'd get the trem spring resonance you were referring to) - so, effectively a sort of  'half-way house' tonally between a hardtail & trem variant.   

guitars4you

Voxman said:

crunchman said:

@Voxman a hardtail will be a bit different.  I think the trem is a major part of what makes a Strat a Strat though. There is a kind of natural reverb (for want of a better word) from the trem springs vibrating.

I'd suggest the rear cavity is probably more relevant here than just the trem springs vibrating, but I agree a trem has an effect on tone.  However, mine is very vibrant/resonant and still sounds very much like a Strat - but without the 'harshness/brittleness' you can get with some Strats.  I realise that Strat's with the trem are much more the 'norm' but It's interesting nonetheless that some players (eg Robert Cray) actually prefer hardtails - and his tone ain't bad!  Possibly it's because they don't need a trem and prefer the greater tuning stability.  Others, like Clapton, prefer to block the trem so that they don't compromise the tuning stability but still benefit from some of the tonal elements of a Strat fitted with a trem (although I don't think you'd get the trem spring resonance you were referring to) - so, effectively a sort of  'half-way house' tonally between a hardtail & trem variant.   

I set a C/S Strat up the other day with 5 strings, no up pitch, so the plate was against the body - just more resonance/vibration and noticeable increase in how it rings

Players like Clapton fixed the bridge assembly so it won't move, yet they prefer that cavity and I dare say because of the tonal qualities it brings - Like @crunchman said a form of reverb - certainly a form of live (there's life there Jim but not as we know it)

professorben

guitars4you said:

Voxman said:

crunchman said:

@Voxman a hardtail will be a bit different.  I think the trem is a major part of what makes a Strat a Strat though. There is a kind of natural reverb (for want of a better word) from the trem springs vibrating.

I'd suggest the rear cavity is probably more relevant here than just the trem springs vibrating, but I agree a trem has an effect on tone.  However, mine is very vibrant/resonant and still sounds very much like a Strat - but without the 'harshness/brittleness' you can get with some Strats.  I realise that Strat's with the trem are much more the 'norm' but It's interesting nonetheless that some players (eg Robert Cray) actually prefer hardtails - and his tone ain't bad!  Possibly it's because they don't need a trem and prefer the greater tuning stability.  Others, like Clapton, prefer to block the trem so that they don't compromise the tuning stability but still benefit from some of the tonal elements of a Strat fitted with a trem (although I don't think you'd get the trem spring resonance you were referring to) - so, effectively a sort of  'half-way house' tonally between a hardtail & trem variant.   

I set a C/S Strat up the other day with 5 strings, no up pitch, so the plate was against the body - just more resonance/vibration and noticeable increase in how it rings

Players like Clapton fixed the bridge assembly so it won't move, yet they prefer that cavity and I dare say because of the tonal qualities it brings - Like @crunchman said a form of reverb - certainly a form of live (there's life there Jim but not as we know it)

Keef tuning? 

peteri

Well given all the help shown to me - it's only fair I report back on progress:

This week, on the recommendation of a friend - I took a visit to New Kings Road Guitars.

Firstly - great shop, completely recommended - proper old school, it's years since I've been asked what amp I want - I used a Twin and a JCM 800. And even longer since I was told - turn it up as much as you like!

There I tried:

1. 1966 Strat - pickups were made in 65, all original apart from a nitro refin, and a really strange headstock break which had been very, very nicely repaired - but still a little visible on the back. Obviously these details, make it affordable
2. 1972 Strat - really clean nice condition
3. Custom Shop 50's Strat (The only one with a maple board) - not relic'd but played so much the fretboard was worn (so properly relic'd)
4. Custom Shop 60's Strat
5. Nash strat, with Nash Lollar pickups.

I played a lot, trying to play the same thing on each guitar. And also - I got the guy in the shop to play them, without me looking at what he was playing - so I was judging as much as possible on sound and nothing else.

Firstly, none of them were bad - but all were night and day different from each other, completely amazing how different they all could be.

No.3 went first - I just didn't like it, to me didn't have the character - but it wasn't a bad guitar. And it had been played to the point of relic'd wear so obviously some people liked it!

1972 strat, I didn't like so much - the back of the neck was a little sticky (and I didn't like the idea of wire wool to a guitar worth that much!), very light guitar - amazingly so. And had quite a light sound, very quick attack on the note - but not really much bottom end. Would have been an amazing funk guitar for example, but not for me.

Custom Shop 60's - lovely paint job and finish, I was surprised by the slightly open grain on the rosewood, which I didn't care for. Sounded like a really good strat - easy to play, perfectly balanced and rounded. Wouldn't say it was distinctive, but was just a really good strat.

Two surprises were the Nash and the 66.

Nash was a really, really nice guitar - acoustically that or the 66 were very close, very full. The Nash actually had a very thick neck, not quite Les Paul but not Strat either.

Sounded really, really good - not a bad sound in the thing.

And the 66

Acoustically, as round and fat as my Les Paul - and slightly better (I think) than the Nash. Sound completely different to the Nash - best way to describe it was the Nash was very slightly more compressed, modern sounding. The 66 just sounded like an old Strat, much fatter than I have ever heard from a Strat - with an almost fuzz'y feeling on the front pickup because of it. Interestingly not enough treble to miss the tone pot on the bridge.


After a lot of changing my mind, I've taken the 66 - reason being, the sound in my head was that of an old Strat sound - and this one did it best

But here's the thing -

All were priced within £500 of each other, apart from the 72 which was quite a bit more - all were Strats, but all were completely different, there wasn't a bad one there - but if you liked one, there would have been any number you wouldn't have done.

So for me, seeking an old strat sound - the 66 was best.

If I wanted vintage vibe with a modern sound - probably the Nash.

If I just wanted a really, really nice strat - the CS ones were the ticket.

So there is no 'right' answer!

downbytheriver

Sounds like a great choice to me, if it's the one you liked best, who can argue - well done and good luck. 

peteri

Thanks!

Lebarque

We need photos, we need photos!

Chalky

I'm a fan of Lace Sensors. Got golds in an 89 sunburst Strat Plus, and a random Red, Burgundy and Blue in a partscaster. Red is hot bridge, Blue is neck p90ish but the surprise is the Burgundy - superb middle pickup that has bite without being hot.

chard

peteri said:

Thanks to all

@Gassage - please let me know where these bargains are! Would love to find an early 70's 4 bolter with rosewood. Or a 66-71 for that matter (69 would be great as a birth year).

That said, all this great advice is making CS look a great idea - and then use the 'change' for a Les Paul DC Jr!

I've got one of those 71 4 bolt numbers.....,

andypwudtone

[admin edit] - business promotion post removed.

richardhomer

God loves a trier.....

Lebarque

True dat. If you upgrade every single part of a MIM strat, you can end up with a great guitar!

But seriously, I've never played a MIM strat which has good resonant tonewood. IMO that's where you need to start with if you want a GREAT sounding strat.

richardhomer

Andy's enthusiasm for his trem giving 'Pre-CBS' tone is admirable.

My question is this; when G & B fitted one to a genuine Pre-CBS Strat (owned by the reviewer) he thought it made no noticeable difference to its tone.

So why it an 'improvement' when fitted to an 'inferior' guitar? Shouldn't it make a Pre-CBS Strat sound 'even better' than a Pre-CBS Strat? Or is it simply made out of decent materials, which means it sounds as good as a vintage Strat assembly?

ToneControl

simple for me really:
what would you rather have, a production line guitar from 40+ years ago, or  for less cash, one built recently with far more care by a recognised expert luthier, using improved materials and components 

andypwudtone

richardhomer said:

Andy's enthusiasm for his trem giving 'Pre-CBS' tone is admirable.

My question is this; when G & B fitted one to a genuine Pre-CBS Strat (owned by the reviewer) he thought it made no noticeable difference to its tone.

So why it an 'improvement' when fitted to an 'inferior' guitar? Shouldn't it make a Pre-CBS Strat sound 'even better' than a PreCBS Strat? Or is it simply made out of decent materials, which means it sounds as good as a vintage Strat assembly?

[admin edit] - business promotion post removed.

peteri

Lebarque said:

True dat. If you upgrade every single part of a MIM strat, you can end up with a great guitar!

But seriously, I've never played a MIM strat which has good resonant tonewood. IMO that's where you need to start with if you want a GREAT sounding strat.

Completely agree with this. 

True story time - few years back I had a USA standard strat and a MIM. 

The MIM had some nice after market pickups fitted. All else stock. 

I found myself playing the MIM much, much more to the point of thinking of selling the USA. 

Then one day we had no power at home and I sat around playing acoustically. 

The USA was so much better acoustically and playing wise without the distraction of the pickups

when the power came on. I quickly switched pickguards- ok the screws didn't line up but one or two did so the test worked. 

Lets just say I sold the MIM not long after

sorry my experience is the above - MIM wood isn't the same standard (workmanship is great mind) let alone compared to slow grown wood with nearly fifty years seasoning

andypwudtone

Lebarque said:

True dat. If you upgrade every single part of a MIM strat, you can end up with a great guitar!

But seriously, I've never played a MIM strat which has good resonant tonewood. IMO that's where you need to start with if you want a GREAT sounding strat.

I agree to some extent,  although I haven't found many MIM strat bodies / necks to be what I consider to be that bad  and poor wood. I may be wrong but I have a feeling a good few of the original pre-cbs strats were Made in Mexico anyway.  

I do think a very low cost, low risk, way into a pretty close ( tone wise) pre-cbs Strat is something like a MIM 62 re-issue eg  this

 https://reverb.com/item/900763-mim-fender-62-reissue-stratocaster

 suitably upgraded (in terms of hardware), bone nut and sorted for playability , etc

and re - good resonant tonewood. IMO that's where you need to start with if you want a GREAT sounding strat.

absolutely and the best way to get that is self build.
kind regards

richardhomer

andypwudtone said:
Thank you for the query. 

The donor guitar Huw (Guitar & Bass) was a real pre-cbs guitar and it had a real pre-cbs trem. Indeed, the trem was made of materials as originally used. SO in terms of tone character he was able to compare a Wudtone CP Vintage with a real Pre-CBS trem.

First, he cheekily fitted the just whacker plate (shim) under the original  pre-cbs trem to see if that caused any change.   

"I noticed a tiny bit more definition and clarity along with a lighter feel. It’s hard to describe, but everything felt slightly freer and smoother". 

Next, Huw then replaced the original pre-cbs trem with the rest of the Wudtone CP Vintage unit and noted "I didn’t perceive any change in tone, considering I was replacing a pre-CBS bridge and saddles, that can be regarded as an accolade. However, the Wudtone made my Strat’s tuning more stable than ever. "

You are right, in the case of the Wudtone CP Vintage option, we have simply used "decent materials". The key point though is that these "decent materials" are equivalent to an original Pre-CBS trem to deliver that tone character.  

Huw's test proved that a Wudtone CP Vintage ( made from equivalent Pre-CBS materials) does indeed deliver Pre-CBS tone character along with a whacker plate that delivers more definition and clarity along with a lighter feel and tuning more stable than ever. 

Now if you replace a stock MIM trem (which is made from completely different materials to Pre-CBS) with a Wudtone CP Vintage unit,  you most certainly do get a shift to a more Pre-CBS like tone character. Pretty much exactly as you can hear in the video.




The only other thing to add is that Huw only tested the Wudtone CP Vintage spec of bridge which is aimed as customers wanting to nail FENDER Pre-CBS tone and looks.

Wudtone also manufacture the Wudtone CP Holy Grail specification ( which is made from materials 3 1/2 as hard). This is more dynamically efficient and so delivers a bigger clean boost for customers that want max dunamic and response etc. This spec of trem is used on options such as the popular PRS DD upgrade.   

kind regards 

So in summary - your trem assembly is the tonal equivalent of a pre-CBS one - and therefore it improves the sound of a guitar fitted with a lower quality trem. It does not some how magically transform a Mexican Strat into a Pre-CBS guitar - but it does improve its tone - as any trem made of better materials would do.

There is so much marketing bullsh1t and voodoo around in the guitar business, it's nice to be able to nail down what is and isn't 'fact'.