Another attack in France...

Cirrus · July 2016

The Islam thing's a red herring in my view. It's not the issue. Islam's a made up religion just like all the others, and the book they follow isn't any more or less weird, hateful and militant than the bible. It's not that long ago we were doing horrible things in ITS name! The problem with the Islamic world isn't that they're Muslims, it's that they often repressive societies with ruling elites that use religion for the thing religion was invented for - getting the general populace to do their bidding.

The problem with suggesting that "Islam" is the problem is that there are lots of Muslims are perfectly normal well balanced people and don't want to go on insane killing sprees. But human nature being what it is, if the society they live in starts looking at them sideways with suspicion and saying that in some way they are accountable for the actions of crazed militants, they will feel marginalised. Marginalise a million normal people and the chances are a few of them will turn crazy, that's true of any population.

Repression begets violence, and violence becomes a vicious circle of attacks and counter attacks, endless recriminations, an eye for an eye, each side feeling they've been wronged. In all of human history, as far as I'm aware these kind of ethnic, religious and tribal conflicts have been resolved by only one thing: time. Time for the angry young men to age and calm down, for children to grow up in a society that accepts them sometimes despite their beliefs, for suicide bombings, gun attacks etc to become stories from history rather than fresh wounds, lost loved ones, fearful memories.

Basically, as horrible as it is I think all we can do is ride it out and do what we can to stop the next generation from the muslim world hating us as much as some of this generation do, for right or wrong, for our colonial past and the influence we've had in shaping their societies. Attacks will happen, innocent people will die. But to retaliate in any way short of killing everyone who might be a terrorist preemptively and turn our western, open society into a terrible repressive dictatorship will just be to prolong the current era of terrorism.

goat · July 2016

Absolutely horrific and unjustifiable attack. Oppressing and removing civil rights from the Muslim community will just make things worse. Or at least that was my experience growing up in NI in the 70s and 80s. Its frustrating but you cant resolve this with force. Feels like things are spiralling in a really bad direction globally with no easy way out.

Ro_S · July 2016

Cirrus said:

The Islam thing's a red herring in my view. It's not the issue. Islam's a made up religion just like all the others, and the book they follow isn't any more or less weird, hateful and militant than the bible. It's not that long ago we were doing horrible things in ITS name! The problem with the Islamic world isn't that they're Muslims, it's that they often repressive societies with ruling elites that use religion for the thing religion was invented for - getting the general populace to do their bidding.

Whether any religion is regarded as 'made up' doesn't matter. It's an ideology. An ideology that someone fiercely believes in. It's a religious ideology. An ideology that can drive people to do extreme things in its name.

Cirrus · July 2016

Ro_S said:
Whether any religion is regarded as 'made up' doesn't matter. It's an ideology. An ideology that someone fiercely believes in. It's a religious ideology. An ideology that can drive people to do extreme things in its name.

And yet if you compared the ideology of most muslims to the ideology of the people conducting these terrorist attacks in the name of their religion, you'll find very little common ground. The religion isn't the issue.

quarky · July 2016

I think it is wrong to say that it is nothing to do with Islam, but it isn't an Islam problem either. There are deep underying issues here where religion is being used to justify certain actions. Obviously, if everyone just accepted that religion was superstitious nonsense, I think there would less hate, but there would still be people passionate enough about their cause to take other lives.

Sorting these problems out is going to be complex. Getting rid of divisive beliefs like religion is not realistic unfortunately.

ToneControl · July 2016

Cirrus said:

The Islam thing's a red herring in my view. It's not the issue. Islam's a made up religion just like all the others, and the book they follow isn't any more or less weird, hateful and militant than the bible. It's not that long ago we were doing horrible things in ITS name! The problem with the Islamic world isn't that they're Muslims, it's that they often repressive societies with ruling elites that use religion for the thing religion was invented for - getting the general populace to do their bidding.

The problem with suggesting that "Islam" is the problem is that there are lots of Muslims are perfectly normal well balanced people and don't want to go on insane killing sprees. But human nature being what it is, if the society they live in starts looking at them sideways with suspicion and saying that in some way they are accountable for the actions of crazed militants, they will feel marginalised. Marginalise a million normal people and the chances are a few of them will turn crazy, that's true of any population.

Repression begets violence, and violence becomes a vicious circle of attacks and counter attacks, endless recriminations, an eye for an eye, each side feeling they've been wronged. In all of human history, as far as I'm aware these kind of ethnic, religious and tribal conflicts have been resolved by only one thing: time. Time for the angry young men to age and calm down, for children to grow up in a society that accepts them sometimes despite their beliefs, for suicide bombings, gun attacks etc to become stories from history rather than fresh wounds, lost loved ones, fearful memories.

Basically, as horrible as it is I think all we can do is ride it out and do what we can to stop the next generation from the muslim world hating us as much as some of this generation do, for right or wrong, for our colonial past and the influence we've had in shaping their societies. Attacks will happen, innocent people will die. But to retaliate in any way short of killing everyone who might be a terrorist preemptively and turn our western, open society into a terrible repressive dictatorship will just be to prolong the current era of terrorism.

it would be nice to agree, but apparently ISIS/Daesh methods is actually very consistent with the Quran, and the documented behaviour of Mohammed the prophet. Islam's holy books are way more violent than the old testament and include mass murder of non-believers, rape of captives, etc. All the Daesh actions are in there. So I am afraid it is about Islam

The new testament was about hippy stuff mostly, yet that and the old testament got overridden by political ambition, and religion was used as a badge for many wars. However, Islam teachings expressly advocate war

please read this:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

quarky · July 2016

I don't think that is true. The OT talks about killing disobedient children, and non-believers. The Koran "only" talks about making them slaves.

None of the Mosaic texts are shining examples of tolerance, but the Koran is not any worse than the bible or the Torah.

stickyfiddle · July 2016

This is worth a read. The issue is obviously more complex than a single article can cover, but worth a read nonetheless.

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/07/15/terror-hits-france-yet-one-sentence-explains/ ;

Ro_S · July 2016

Cirrus said:

Ro_S said:
Whether any religion is regarded as 'made up' doesn't matter. It's an ideology. An ideology that someone fiercely believes in. It's a religious ideology. An ideology that can drive people to do extreme things in its name.

And yet if you compared the ideology of most muslims to the ideology of the people conducting these terrorist attacks in the name of their religion, you'll find very little common ground. The religion isn't the issue.

The religion certainly is the issue. ISIS and the ISIS affiliated terrorist attacks are all conducted in relation to their religious beliefs. That religious belief is Islam. None of the ISIS terrorist attackers are Christian; they're Muslims, albeit a certain type of Muslim. There's no similar Christian related terrorist threat occurring at present in France, Britain, USA, etc.
They are inspired to kill based on their holy texts.
Further, certain tenets of Islam and Muslim culture are fundamentally incompatible with Western values. And multiculturalism isn't working.
Before we can deal with a problem we have to both identify and properly acknowledge what the problem is.

Ro_S · July 2016

quarky said:

I don't think that is true. The OT talks about killing disobedient children, and non-believers. The Koran "only" talks about making them slaves.

None of the Mosaic texts are shining examples of tolerance, but the Koran is not any worse than the bible or the Torah.

The New Testament has only one commandment, given by Jesus: to love thy neighbour. Jesus explains that one's neighbour can be anyone, regardless of race, ethnicity, religion or class.

quarky · July 2016

Ro_S said:

quarky said:

I don't think that is true. The OT talks about killing disobedient children, and non-believers. The Koran "only" talks about making them slaves.

None of the Mosaic texts are shining examples of tolerance, but the Koran is not any worse than the bible or the Torah.

The New Testament has only one commandment, given by Jesus: to love thy neighbour. Jesus explains that one's neighbour can be anyone, regardless of race, ethnicity, religion or class.

Absolute bollocks. Matthew 5:17. In fact, there is plenty of hate right through the NT too, but most people (rightly) dismiss it. My point is, if you are going to do that with one "holy" book, you need to do with to them all.

Ro_S · July 2016

quarky said:

Ro_S said:

The New Testament has only one commandment, given by Jesus: to love thy neighbour. Jesus explains that one's neighbour can be anyone, regardless of race, ethnicity, religion or class.

Absolute bollocks. Matthew 5:17. In fact, there is plenty of hate right through the NT too, but most people (rightly) dismiss it. My point is, if you are going to do that with one "holy" book, you need to do with to them all.

Where in the New Testament does Jesus advocate hate? And where does he advocate killing non-believers and heretics?

quarky · July 2016

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

There in black and white. He had a chance to say otherwise, but no, he specifically says that the old laws still apply.

quarky · July 2016

Or here:

Mathew 10:34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.

Chalky · July 2016

stickyfiddle said:

This is worth a read. The issue is obviously more complex than a single article can cover, but worth a read nonetheless.

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/07/15/terror-hits-france-yet-one-sentence-explains/ ;

Agreed.

In a strange way, we in the UK were very lucky in having the troubles in Northern Ireland. We received a lengthy and rather cheap education about terrorism. The word 'cheap' is insulting to those who lost someone but I can't think of a better one at the moment.

That education taught us that you don't beat terrorism by treating it as a war. We learned that such an attitude may feel 'right' but it is completely wrong. We had to learn that forgiveness and tolerance had to form the basis for peace, and that co-operation as equals was the only way forward.

The fundamental problem is the current terroristic threat is values. Now it can be argued that Islam teaches 'wrong' values, and clearly ones like the subjugation of women are indeed wrong in the eyes of homogenised UK culture and law. However, the waging of war and aerial bombardment and collateral damage are also very wrong. The "we will not negotiate with terrorists" line is fundamentally stupid too, as is "our suicide bombers will make them change their minds".

Whilst neither side values the human life on the other side, then both sides share the wrong values. That is the continuous lesson of the Middle East.

impmann · July 2016

There have been millions of people put to death in the name of Christianity since the get go, so lets just park that idea that Christians have any moral high ground.

Radical Islam is different from Islam. FACT. The vast majority of Muslims do not support this sort of action nor do they want to be associated with this.

Ro_S · July 2016

impmann said:

Radical Islam is different from Islam. FACT.

False.

There are various different forms of Islam. They are still all Islamic. ISIS related Islam is just one form of Islam.

quarky · July 2016

OK. Radical Islam is different from normally practiced Islam, just as radical Christianity is different from normally practiced Christianity. There have been many murderous Christans too. There are way too many genocidal Christians in history to go into detail of them all.

The vast majority of Christians apply an element of common sense. So do the vast majority of Islamists.

Of course neither of them want to admit any fault in their holy books.

stratosonic · July 2016

DrJazzTap · July 2016

Has this actually been announced as a terrorist attack? I read earlier that he had some party crimes etc but wasn't recognised as a radicalized national.

It's a frightening horrible event. Of all the places in the world Nice is the last place in the world id expect something like this

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