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No, I know that’s not everyone’s point before people come at me. But the viewpoint of the non-sound engineers here (who amazingly seem to be brushed over) is “if my amp ain’t loud then the band will sound shite”
@slacker put it better than I’ve managed. Both solutions work, of course they do, but trust the engineer who knows the venue. Take a hit to your preference for best quality.
It is not a “bogus” argument, it is a venue specific consideration. If the venue is capable of either then it is band preference. The over riding consideration of all things is the audience experience.
And if you don’t care about the audience experience… good luck getting a second gig.
I don't really recognise any of your characterisations there. No-one here is arguing that amps should always be cranked and that everyone needs to bend to the guitarists will. And no one has said if the amp aint loud, then the band will sound shite.
It does depend on the gig. If I was playing for We Will Rock You or some other stageplay, I'd have to go DI and I'd accept that. Because it isn't a 'rock show' revolving around guitars. It's a play.
But this thread isn't and was never about that. It was never about comparing types of gigs. It was about guitarists bearing the brunt of the "quiet stage" methodology. Bassists and drummers seem to get a pass, even though physically speaking, those instruments are louder and more disruptive to the audience than guitar is; context depending.
And it's not true that drummers can't be "turned down" - checkout my clip. Our drummer doesn't utterly twat his cymbals. And he's not constantly hitting his shells at full velocity. He has a sense of dynamics.
The worst drummers for this seem to be death-metal drummers. And you don't bloody need to use triggers on a kick drum when you're playing to 50 people in the Black Heart in Camden - c'mon guys!! Spread the word!!
And since bass travels further because of the long waveforms, I've never really seen much sense in DI'ing the bass whilst also allowing the bassist on stage to have his amp super loud. In my 13+ years of gigging, I've noticed that bassists almost never get told to turn down. Even though when the bass is loud, the guitars have to be louder in order to compete.
Part of my perspective is that the guitars are often pointed at first, as the source of a bad mix. But more often than not, the guitarist is just compensating for some other element of the mix that is stepping outside of it's lane.
At that same gig last week, there was one guy using a Kemper rack. I was stood in the front 3 rows (yes I'm fat) and it sounded like a cranked amp+cab on stage to me. So I honestly didn't see the benefit of him using a Kemper; it certainly was not bringing down the stage volume!!
And I and several others have agreed that the band should be "acoustically" balanced, with the PA there to support and enhance. And with a loud drummer, this requires a loud amp. I've also said amps should not be pointed directly at crowd.
And as such, the idea that you cant have loud amps on stage full stop, is bogus. If pointed in the right direction (maybe even backwards) and balanced you clearly can.
My issue is sound guys wanting ultimate control and trying to make a live gig sound like a hifi record. I don't want it to sound like a record - I want it to sound live! I want to feel the volume. If I'm near the front, I don't want to feel like the sound is coming from behind me (which happens a lot).
The whole guitarist with an ego thing is a separate conversation to this one.
I do worry my comments have been taken as aggressive which is not the intent at all.
My point has always been a simple one and I think most people gigging in various venues will agree, we all have our preference as to the level of stage volume, and that’s all groovy. But bands … and it’s all members really but to some extent you have to exclude singers and drummers because of the inherent limitations therein … need to bend according to the needs of the venue. That was all.
That and my belief that gigs are for the audience not the band. You want them to come back, buy your music, buy your merchandise. So you should play for them.
I've been at (pro) gigs where the soundman has clearly struggled to balance everything against an over-loud guitar amp. (Gary Moore, for example).
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
The guitar analogy would be more akin to playing a MIDI guitar triggering samples with rubber strings, or something along those lines.
I'd only use one live as a last resort.
Trading feedback here
However one advantage was that the other guitarist and I were so used to getting a decent sound at low volume that we never have volume wars and I don't use ear plugs.
I'm not a drummer but riot shield pads are unforgiving and mesh heads are ok. I understand why a drummer wouldn't like them personally the investment has been good as we saved a lot of rehearsal room costs.
If there's one or more elements on stage that are dominating acoustically in the room, be it a snare drum, a guitar or a bass, then that immediately restricts my ability to do that - because it stops me making space for other elements when I need to push them forward - I either have to bring everything up to that level, which brings its own problems, or I just have to accept that one particular source is going to swallow everything and that there's fuck all I can do about it.
https://theprogressiveaspect.net/blog/2021/09/19/portals-festival/?fbclid=IwAR2jv-62SOPfH2XPWJwvchazT_VLcUOftkc-tAi4hQCRi6YGA0f7gh7Gseg
A few mentions of a couple of bands being too loud there.