Bedroom Dealers/Flippers

carlos

mark123 said:

I've thought about this for a while and think if someone has done it on here and people have proof then they should have a dolphin emoji next to there fretboard name ( flipper).

Like someone who's in this forum buying and selling but also on Reverb with this name?
 

digitalscream

For what it's worth...I'm looking at a potential rule change around this. As some have said...this is a community, first and foremost. The classifieds are not intended as a free alternative to eBay, they're supposed to be a bonus for contributing members of the community.

As such, in a coming soon update, it's fairly likely that we will be banning dealers (bedroom or otherwise) from using our classifieds; the exception will be those with the tFB Trader tag, of course, because they represent businesses we know and trust, and who've proven themselves valuable to both the community as a whole and our members individually. Apart from anything, we want to support those businesses - so allowing people to come on here and undercut them with none of the overheads of a real, genuine business irks me no end.

The only question in my mind is what the definition of "a dealer" should be. I've had some good suggestions already, and while I'm not specifically asking for more suggestions, this thread will prove useful in refining that definition.

EDIT: And yes, whatever rule we come up with will apply to existing members.

RaymondLin

You can just follow TP forum template, like 3 months membership with 100 posts, so you filter out some people.

digitalscream

RaymondLin said:

You can just follow TP forum template, like 3 months membership with 100 posts, so you filter out some people.

The problem with that is that you get people posting junk comments like "+1" and "Yeah" just to boost their post count - eBay and PayPal fees on a £1500+ guitar are non-negligible, so it's worth the investment of a non-post a day for three months to gain direct access to a captive audience of GAS-addicted potential customers for free.

gazrichards

carlos said:

mark123 said:

I've thought about this for a while and think if someone has done it on here and people have proof then they should have a dolphin emoji next to there fretboard name ( flipper).

Like someone who's in this forum buying and selling but also on Reverb with this name?
 

Ha, again that’s me. 

I get the feeling you have an issue with me because I got a guitar off Facebook before you could get to it. Where I gave the guy his asking price. 

Again, I’ve never bought on this forum and sold for higher. I’ve sold on this forum and yes, for more than I’ve paid for it but I fail to see how one could have an issue with that...

Even in my reverb page I’m totally transparent about what I’m doing and my YouTube videos explain what I’m doing it’s a project to get me new guitars that has actually taken on a new life where I enjoy trying them out and documenting them and actually a few have been so good I’ve kept them and sold my own guitars (that’s an odd statement as they are all my own guitars)

munckee

gazrichards said:

carlos said:

mark123 said:

I've thought about this for a while and think if someone has done it on here and people have proof then they should have a dolphin emoji next to there fretboard name ( flipper).

Like someone who's in this forum buying and selling but also on Reverb with this name?
 

Ha, again that’s me. 

I get the feeling you have an issue with me because I got a guitar off Facebook before you could get to it. Where I gave the guy his asking price. 

Again, I’ve never bought on this forum and sold for higher. I’ve sold on this forum and yes, for more than I’ve paid for it but I fail to see how one could have an issue with that...

Even in my reverb page I’m totally transparent about what I’m doing and my YouTube videos explain what I’m doing it’s a project to get me new guitars that has actually taken on a new life where I enjoy trying them out and documenting them and actually a few have been so good I’ve kept them and sold my own guitars (that’s an odd statement as they are all my own guitars)

Do you think you should have a tfb trader status?

gazrichards

munckee said:

gazrichards said:

carlos said:

mark123 said:

I've thought about this for a while and think if someone has done it on here and people have proof then they should have a dolphin emoji next to there fretboard name ( flipper).

Like someone who's in this forum buying and selling but also on Reverb with this name?
 

Ha, again that’s me. 

I get the feeling you have an issue with me because I got a guitar off Facebook before you could get to it. Where I gave the guy his asking price. 

Again, I’ve never bought on this forum and sold for higher. I’ve sold on this forum and yes, for more than I’ve paid for it but I fail to see how one could have an issue with that...

Even in my reverb page I’m totally transparent about what I’m doing and my YouTube videos explain what I’m doing it’s a project to get me new guitars that has actually taken on a new life where I enjoy trying them out and documenting them and actually a few have been so good I’ve kept them and sold my own guitars (that’s an odd statement as they are all my own guitars)

Do you think you should have a tfb trader status?

I’d be happy too
nearly all of the dealings I do on this group are for my final item or a keeper. Like I said earlier, you are all too savvy to be lowballed and despite what some pricks say, I don’t do that anyway. 

I’ve offered trades mostly or polite and fairly close offers. Never a sob story other than “I have £1k if you’ll take that, otherwise something has to sell”. 

One thing I’ve noticed here is that it seems to be a fairly unique bubble where some stuff goes super quick and at great prices and the normal stuff is hard to shift. 

Japanese les paul types, suhr and Tom Anderson types stuff, fano guitars all go pretty regularly where as on a Facebook group you would get little attention as they all want Gibson’s and strats. 

Also a lot of people use this group and reverb and Facebook and seem to do similar to me, put it up here for less. 

GoldenEraGuitars

If you’re not registered with HMRC then you’re not a dealer. Having a constant supply of multiple guitars, amps or pedals for sale while not paying your way out of the profits and being allowed a platform to pull it off isn’t right imo. Having said that, if Facebook imposed strict rules like that I dare say the major buy/sell pages would implode.

munckee

gazrichards said:

munckee said:

gazrichards said:

carlos said:

mark123 said:

I've thought about this for a while and think if someone has done it on here and people have proof then they should have a dolphin emoji next to there fretboard name ( flipper).

Like someone who's in this forum buying and selling but also on Reverb with this name?
 

Ha, again that’s me. 

I get the feeling you have an issue with me because I got a guitar off Facebook before you could get to it. Where I gave the guy his asking price. 

Again, I’ve never bought on this forum and sold for higher. I’ve sold on this forum and yes, for more than I’ve paid for it but I fail to see how one could have an issue with that...

Even in my reverb page I’m totally transparent about what I’m doing and my YouTube videos explain what I’m doing it’s a project to get me new guitars that has actually taken on a new life where I enjoy trying them out and documenting them and actually a few have been so good I’ve kept them and sold my own guitars (that’s an odd statement as they are all my own guitars)

Do you think you should have a tfb trader status?

I’d be happy too

I think it would be fair to note it. I have no issue with you buying on here and selling for a profit, good luck to you. 

gazrichards

munckee said:

gazrichards said:

munckee said:

gazrichards said:

carlos said:

mark123 said:

I've thought about this for a while and think if someone has done it on here and people have proof then they should have a dolphin emoji next to there fretboard name ( flipper).

Like someone who's in this forum buying and selling but also on Reverb with this name?
 

Ha, again that’s me. 

I get the feeling you have an issue with me because I got a guitar off Facebook before you could get to it. Where I gave the guy his asking price. 

Again, I’ve never bought on this forum and sold for higher. I’ve sold on this forum and yes, for more than I’ve paid for it but I fail to see how one could have an issue with that...

Even in my reverb page I’m totally transparent about what I’m doing and my YouTube videos explain what I’m doing it’s a project to get me new guitars that has actually taken on a new life where I enjoy trying them out and documenting them and actually a few have been so good I’ve kept them and sold my own guitars (that’s an odd statement as they are all my own guitars)

Do you think you should have a tfb trader status?

I’d be happy too

I think it would be fair to note it. I have no issue with you buying on here and selling for a profit, good luck to you. 

Do I set this up myself? I’ll look into it anyway. 

But again, I’m not daft enough to buy your les paul on here for a grand and list it for £1400 a day later. I used to run a guitar shop and had grief from people for doing that when I took their guitar in part ex. I’ve not sold anything on here that I bought on here (I don’t think?)
most of the time I buy from guys that just haven’t got the sense or know how to list it properly. It’s not reverb users or guys on every Facebook guitar group but guys just listing stuff on local marketplace listings with 1 shitty pic and a poor description. Usually badly in need of a setup and a couple of hours work doing to it. 

I do all that work and so take the benefits but also hold all the risks. 

As for tax, well its not earning enough but I am self employed. As far as the inland revenue is concerned I am me and people pay me money for doing a variety of weird things. I run a few martial arts dojos, have a sports injuries clinic, do/did gigs, did some cycle tour guiding in Europe and did some ad hoc work with professional cycling teams so my income is wild and varied and adding a guitar profit to that would be easy but off of that profit also comes a whole bunch of expenses too remember. 

I’m really not getting rich of this, I like guitars and have the time to trawl adverts. I had aspirations of being a YouTube sensation off the back of it (not really, my brother is a professional YouTubed and he’s boring as hell so I thought it would be easy!!! I like doing the videos though and they help when selling). It’s just a fun way for me to try lots of guitars and get a great collection of guitars without paying lots. I’m not a dealer, just an enthusiast. I like repairing and working on guitars but got bored of the partscaster thing and don’t want to build or repair professionally again so this is an outlet. 

RaymondLin

digitalscream said:

RaymondLin said:

You can just follow TP forum template, like 3 months membership with 100 posts, so you filter out some people.

The problem with that is that you get people posting junk comments like "+1" and "Yeah" just to boost their post count - eBay and PayPal fees on a £1500+ guitar are non-negligible, so it's worth the investment of a non-post a day for three months to gain direct access to a captive audience of GAS-addicted potential customers for free.

Hence I said SOME people, but you will filter out the sign up and buy and flip on day 1.

Make it 12 months and 1000 posts if you want.  Just need to find that balance.

gazrichards

RaymondLin said:

digitalscream said:

RaymondLin said:

You can just follow TP forum template, like 3 months membership with 100 posts, so you filter out some people.

The problem with that is that you get people posting junk comments like "+1" and "Yeah" just to boost their post count - eBay and PayPal fees on a £1500+ guitar are non-negligible, so it's worth the investment of a non-post a day for three months to gain direct access to a captive audience of GAS-addicted potential customers for free.

Hence I said SOME people, but you will filter out the sign up and buy and flip on day 1.

Make it 12 months and 1000 posts if you want.  Just need to find that balance.

A vintage bicycle forum I used to frequent just had a system where if folk sold on the forum the would donate to the running of the page. Websites arent free and I’m pretty sure it kept it ad free. 

Sell a guitar, donate a fiver etc. 

There was no pressure to donate but lots of ads did especially if they were selling an expensive part or bike. Average sale prices would have been far less than the deals done on here too. 

hollywoodrox

StefB said:

Adey said:

I sold a car to a dealer once, and would you believe it, he put it up for sale straight away at a much higher price.

Unbeleivable....

Did he try and pretend he wasn’t a dealer?

Sheepskin coat and trilby was a dead giveaway 

HarrySeven

I can only speak from my own experiences/perceptions, blahblahblah, but I *think* it’s as follows:

a. No one likes to think they’ve been taken for a ride - and if they transact with someone who lowballs, bargains aggressively, trots out sob-stories, overtly picks fault, deliberately under/overvalues on trades, etc, etc - only for their acquisition to appear up for sale immediately with a huge mark-up - it leaves a nasty taste.

b. Duplicitous practices are bad. The End.
So, for instance...if you’ve set up a Facebook selling group* with pre-approved posts and you’re creaming off stuff before it even gets online, if you’re using the practices in a. to maximise profit, if you’re deliberately obscuring your real motive for acquiring a guitar (or whatever), etc, etc, then it’s probably fair to say that you’re a bit dodgy...

*The names of some of the Admins on such Facebook groups can occasionally be a real eye-opener - suddenly everything makes sense...

c. Running a business and avoiding HMRC - considering the vast scale on which this happens globally, fannying about with a few guitars is a drop in the ocean, but in conjunction with a. and b. above, it’s not great.

d.

e.

etc, etc, etc...

As others have said, people are free to do what they want with their possessions - and buying cheap/selling high has been around since the dawn of commerce. However, thefretboard is a community (rather than a cheap source of stock for your business) - and as such, I genuinely don’t see anything wrong in attempting to set parameters which seek to preserve the spirit of the site.

soma1975

I buy and sell shitloads on here. 

I'm not trying to make a profit out of any of you. Just trying to minimise my losses. 

Barnezy

People are talking as if this is some lucrative business. Lol. A few hundred pounds here and there for all the effort and fuss of buying, maybe collecting, advertising, dealing with annoying buyers, boxing, shipping, dealing with PayPal disputes, dealing with damaged or lost items. That's all before you factor in the money tied up in it and the risk taken on if you can't shift it...... no thanks. 

You could think about it this way also, flippers push up the value of your own gear as well. 

Adey

I'm surprised that this is the first time that this subject has come up on the forum....

jonnyburgo

I don't know how anyone makes a sale on here these days, - Check out this "full fat" LP Studio I tried to sell on here last year at £550. Not a sausage and even got a LOL for my troubles.(I KNOW WHO YOU ARE )

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/170614/


People are trying to move faded jobbies for more.

Sold it on gumtree in the end.

soma1975

It's weird. I have things sitting on here for an eternity at good prices and not a sniff and it goes instantly for more on ebay, but then loads of times I have had pedals up here and they have sold within an hour of posting. 

GoldenEraGuitars

Barnezy said:

People are talking as if this is some lucrative business.

But it can be.. 

imagine you buy 3 guitars at £1000 each knowing full well you can get at least £1400 for them each reasonably quickly (let’s say within 30 days). Pop them up for sale in your favourite places on Facebook and spread them around the forums carefully so as not to alert anyone to the fact t that you’re a bedroom dealer. Now, if you get the £1400 per guitar or even £1400 a piece for 2 and £1300 for another one that’s a profit of £1100 in a month. Might not sound “lucrative“ to you but let’s also say it’s the end of the month and it’s payday too from your 9-5. A £20k a year job should get you £1350 or so... add on your guitar takings. Not bad, huh? And for the sake of conversation your missus has just had the family tax credits paid in too, happy days. Back to the £1100 profit.. that’s more than I make in a month with a legitimate business in year 4. My tax money is also contributing to the bedroom dealers tax credits and other bits n bobs I’m sure.

So, maybe my example is melodramatic over OTT but the rate I’ve seen some guys sell their “stock” I don’t think it is. 

Barnezy said:

A few hundred pounds here and there for all the effort and fuss of buying, maybe collecting, advertising, dealing with annoying buyers, boxing, shipping, dealing with PayPal disputes, dealing with damaged or lost items. 

Well, that’s called “business” and if you want to buy and sell from your house and not declare the cash then no one is forcing a gun to your head. Imagine being a retailer who takes trade ins and used gear. They have to do that without seeing all the profit.