Bedroom Dealers/Flippers

GoldenEraGuitars

Adey said:

I'm surprised that this is the first time that this subject has come up on the forum....

Same. I think the admin team are very liberal and fair on the dealers. 

HarrySeven

Barnezy said:

People are talking as if this is some lucrative business.

Not necessarily, but I think generally, the beef is with less-than-scrupulous characters.

Saying that, with the rise of Reverb, etc and multi-platform speculative no-risk pricing, the idea of buying low, putting your goods out there at grossly-inflated prices and fishing for offers may look attractive (initially) to some.

Barnezy said:

You could think about it this way also, flippers push up the value of your own gear as well. 

Personally, that’s not something I worry about (as I don’t sell stuff *that* often - and I don’t collect for any particular fiscal return).

However, there are more than a few members here who take issue with the efforts of certain dealers to single-handedly skew the market (for certain instruments) in their favour - and in one notable case, that’s certainly been achieved - and not necessarily through methods which most would consider honourable.

In general terms - and again, from my own perspective - I’m happy to sell to dealers who are straight, above board and aren’t taking the piss - and there are a number of those on here. On the other hand, there are a lot of people (mainly Facebook chancers) who I wouldn’t sell to if my next meal depended on it.

mikeyrob73

I’m a bit like @DrCornelius in that I have bought loads and sold loads on here, I can’t say I have ever really made a profit, I have however got to play many great guitars, met some lovely people 
had multiple transactions with the likes of @CountryDave @rlw ; 
I have sold a couple of guitars elsewhere that made a tiny profit but anything I bought on here I have always offered up at the same price when selling, it hasn’t always sold on here tho. 

Does that make me a “flipper” ? 

munckee

soma1975 said:

It's weird. I have things sitting on here for an eternity at good prices and not a sniff and it goes instantly for more on ebay, but then loads of times I have had pedals up here and they have sold within an hour of posting. 

Because of the limits of who sees it here you have to rely on either selling someone has either decided they want and are wanting to come up, or selling something they didn’t even know they want until they see it. 

Pedals I find sell easily enough on here guitars and amps sell much quicker on  Gumtree. 

chrisj1602

They annoy me because they clog up marketplaces with overpriced listings. There’s a guy on eBay doing it with pedals now and that’s pissing me off because he seems to snap up any reasonable deal, even something like an old TC Flashback, say for £55-60 and lists them for £80. I was looking for a Boss RC-1 a few months back and he had 4 listings and they weren’t priced much lower than a new one.

Another thing is some of the shitty inbox messages you get from them... I was selling a Custom Shop Les Paul Custom a couple of years back when one of them got in touch on Gumtree, I got the message... "offers?" I said I would consider reasonable offers, then got a follow up that said "1300".  That’s just insulting. Then you get then follow up horse shit "you won’t get what you want for it" etc. Anyone using those tactics can fuck off as far as I’m concerned.

If they got in touch and said, I’m a dealer but if you want a quick sale I can give £xxx I’d be a lot happier to interact with them.

ToneControl

bgmartinsbridge said:

This is more to do with the pretend dealers.

Here's an example from Bogner Regis man.. 

Sold for £2100
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/193684263309

Listed the next day for £3195
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203144284764

He's adding absolutely zero value and has no shop - but appreciate you could say the same for Amazon!

My view is these guys are now buying absolutely anything and everything that appears nice or fairly priced, hence the lack of decent guitars up for sale. 

Agree its market forces and they're not actually doing anything wrong unless they don't pay tax - and I've sold to dealers myself. I just feel that we're now seeing saturation and its incredibly obvious. 

I can tell you how that happened

"collection only" auctions attract few buyers
I've had quite a few guitars over the years at lower prices this way. I remember a classical with RRP about £400-£500, I got for £50. Seller was in the mountains of North Wales and would not post, did not even have a box. I met him in the Makro car park in Queensferry.

I can easily see that someone could target collection-only auctions and then sell on with postage available to a wider pool of buyers

PonchoGreg

ToneControl said:

bgmartinsbridge said:

This is more to do with the pretend dealers.

Here's an example from Bogner Regis man.. 

Sold for £2100
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/193684263309

Listed the next day for £3195
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203144284764

He's adding absolutely zero value and has no shop - but appreciate you could say the same for Amazon!

My view is these guys are now buying absolutely anything and everything that appears nice or fairly priced, hence the lack of decent guitars up for sale. 

Agree its market forces and they're not actually doing anything wrong unless they don't pay tax - and I've sold to dealers myself. I just feel that we're now seeing saturation and its incredibly obvious. 

I can tell you how that happened

"collection only" auctions attract few buyers
I've had quite a few guitars over the years at lower prices this way. I remember a classical with RRP about £400-£500, I got for £50. Seller was in the mountains of North Wales and would not post, did not even have a box. I met him in the Makro car park in Queensferry.

I can easily see that someone could target collection-only auctions and then sell on with postage available to a wider pool of buyers

A friend of mine had a period of doing that with vintage bike and bike parts. He would get old track frames etc of the French equivalent of Gumtree, clean them up, sometimes assemble complete bikes and then do international sales on eBay (mainly to Japan, as they had the whole fixie craze). Made a good chunk of money from what I recall.

Didn't really see an issue with it. The original sellers weren't aware or willing to put an effort into tapping into a much better market, but he did and sometimes took on the risk of being stuck with something.

dazzajl

Seems like a pretty solid consensus in this thread. No one has a problem with honest traders that provide a service. Everyone dislikes the schemers who hide their intentions to exploit the market place. And everyone here would be happy to see a few restrictions to keep the
sales more community minded. 

My own personal experience suggests I don’t buy or sell much that’s of interest to the traders and I’ve met some fabulous people from the deals I’ve been part of. 

HarrySeven

Adey said:

I'm surprised that this is the first time that this subject has come up on the forum....

It’s actually cropped up numerous times...

SteveRobinson

HarrySeven said:

Adey said:

I'm surprised that this is the first time that this subject has come up on the forum....

It’s actually cropped up numerous times...

I assumed Adey was being sarcastic?

Sassafras

The answer's simple, don't buy stuff and you won't have to sell it for peanuts.

HarrySeven

SteveRobinson said:

HarrySeven said:

Adey said:

I'm surprised that this is the first time that this subject has come up on the forum....

It’s actually cropped up numerous times...

I assumed Adey was being sarcastic?

So did I!

Legionreturns

I've met and dealt with some fabulous people on here. I've had more than one person knowingly and deliberately make a loss to get a bit of kit to me that will help support my business, because they value what I do with disadvantaged youngsters. 

It would be the easiest thing in the world to take advantage of that and sell bits on at a huge margin, but I feel that as a community we support each other. If any of the things I use for work become redundant, I tend to offer them on here at low prices. If someone takes advantage of that it feels shitty, so I tend to prefer long time members that I know over a relative newcomer that I don't know, even at a lower price  

Barnezy

GoldenEraGuitars said:

Barnezy said:

People are talking as if this is some lucrative business.

But it can be.. 

imagine you buy 3 guitars at £1000 each knowing full well you can get at least £1400 for them each reasonably quickly (let’s say within 30 days). Pop them up for sale in your favourite places on Facebook and spread them around the forums carefully so as not to alert anyone to the fact t that you’re a bedroom dealer. Now, if you get the £1400 per guitar or even £1400 a piece for 2 and £1300 for another one that’s a profit of £1100 in a month. Might not sound “lucrative“ to you but let’s also say it’s the end of the month and it’s payday too from your 9-5. A £20k a year job should get you £1350 or so... add on your guitar takings. Not bad, huh? And for the sake of conversation your missus has just had the family tax credits paid in too, happy days. Back to the £1100 profit.. that’s more than I make in a month with a legitimate business in year 4. My tax money is also contributing to the bedroom dealers tax credits and other bits n bobs I’m sure.

So, maybe my example is melodramatic over OTT but the rate I’ve seen some guys sell their “stock” I don’t think it is. 

Barnezy said:

A few hundred pounds here and there for all the effort and fuss of buying, maybe collecting, advertising, dealing with annoying buyers, boxing, shipping, dealing with PayPal disputes, dealing with damaged or lost items. 

Well, that’s called “business” and if you want to buy and sell from your house and not declare the cash then no one is forcing a gun to your head. Imagine being a retailer who takes trade ins and used gear. They have to do that without seeing all the profit. 

Yeah like I said, its not worth the effort.

mrkb

Legionreturns said:

I've met and dealt with some fabulous people on here. I've had more than one person knowingly and deliberately make a loss to get a bit of kit to me that will help support my business, because they value what I do with disadvantaged youngsters. 

It would be the easiest thing in the world to take advantage of that and sell bits on at a huge margin, but I feel that as a community we support each other. If any of the things I use for work become redundant, I tend to offer them on here at low prices. If someone takes advantage of that it feels shitty, so I tend to prefer long time members that I know over a relative newcomer that I don't know, even at a lower price  

Agree with that outlook, guess it depends on whether you see other forumites as people to exploit for your own gain or part of a community that helps each other.

I picked up a great pedalboard flight case for free from octatonic when he moved overseas. I’m about to list it back up on here for free as I don’t need it anymore. 

soma1975

munckee said:

soma1975 said:

It's weird. I have things sitting on here for an eternity at good prices and not a sniff and it goes instantly for more on ebay, but then loads of times I have had pedals up here and they have sold within an hour of posting. 

Because of the limits of who sees it here you have to rely on either selling someone has either decided they want and are wanting to come up, or selling something they didn’t even know they want until they see it. 

Pedals I find sell easily enough on here guitars and amps sell much quicker on  Gumtree. 

I would rather drink bleach than use Gumtree tbf.

guitars4you

digitalscream said:

For what it's worth...I'm looking at a potential rule change around this. As some have said...this is a community, first and foremost. The classifieds are not intended as a free alternative to eBay, they're supposed to be a bonus for contributing members of the community.

As such, in a coming soon update, it's fairly likely that we will be banning dealers (bedroom or otherwise) from using our classifieds; the exception will be those with the tFB Trader tag, of course, because they represent businesses we know and trust, and who've proven themselves valuable to both the community as a whole and out members individually. Apart from anything, we want to support those businesses - so allowing people to come on here and undercut them with none of the overheads of a real, genuine business irks me no end.

The only question in my mind is what the definition of "a dealer" should be. I've had some good suggestions already, and while I'm not specifically asking for more suggestions, this thread will prove useful in refining that definition.

EDIT: And yes, whatever rule we come up with will apply to existing members.

First of all I appreciate you allowing various businesses to promote/list various products and services on FB - Including myself - Maybe as a retailer then I should be more pee'd off about 'bedroom dealers' - Maybe I'm getting more mellow as I get older, but I don't get hung up about it now - I might even move towards that 'bedroom dealer' status myself, as I get closer to 65 and no longer need/want a shop - But with the advent of on-line sites, for good or bad, then such activities as a 'bedroom dealer' will take place

I exhibit at around 18 guitars shows in a year - Pre-Covid - And I dare say that well over 50% of exhibitors do not operate a day to day guitar based/related business - I tend to say these guys are more of a 'weekend warrior' - I know some 'legit' outlets will now no longer exhibit at such shows because of this - But I like the shows, for many reasons inc buying stock - I think at the end of the day I just prefer to think I offer a better product, services, integrity etc etc  and the customer can choose - The only time I get pee'd off at the shows and it happens to often, is if a bedroom dealer/weekend warrior comes to me with a potential deal, wanting it at cost,  based on 'now I'm in the trade' or 'I'm one of you' - No 'ef off - You have no trade accounts, no company registration no, probably no accountant, no vat registration etc etc so you are not one of me 

Maybe the issue is more about what knowledge, service, quality, integrity that they offer - And of course any contributions towards Boris and co  

However, I'm not sure how you intend to bring in any additional rule changes etc - My only comment based on you must already have some FB posting record, before you can list gear for sale,  is that for me, my first posting, as Guitars4You, was that my web site had gone down for a few days - So to generate some business I joined FB and listed some gear for sale - @Ttony had asked me a few times to join, but for whatever reason I had not - So with no wis, lol, or wow's I joined with gear for sale - Now I'm hooked as much as many other FB members are - Yes I have a shop, but I'm still a gear junky just like you - And have said many times, that I've learnt quite a bit since I've been an FB member - So I'm glad I'm here - But I'm grateful/glad I could join at the point of zero contributions towards the club 

DB1

soma1975 said:

munckee said:

soma1975 said:

It's weird. I have things sitting on here for an eternity at good prices and not a sniff and it goes instantly for more on ebay, but then loads of times I have had pedals up here and they have sold within an hour of posting. 

Because of the limits of who sees it here you have to rely on either selling someone has either decided they want and are wanting to come up, or selling something they didn’t even know they want until they see it. 

Pedals I find sell easily enough on here guitars and amps sell much quicker on  Gumtree. 

I would rather drink bleach than use Gumtree tbf.

I shared the same feeling due to previous experience. It surprised me lately though - I listed a Godin 5th Avenue on here at a low price. No interest, which I expected really. I thought ‘sod it, try Gumtree again’, so listed it at £75 more and it sold within half an hour at the asking price. 

ronnyb

soma1975 said:

munckee said:

soma1975 said:

It's weird. I have things sitting on here for an eternity at good prices and not a sniff and it goes instantly for more on ebay, but then loads of times I have had pedals up here and they have sold within an hour of posting. 

Because of the limits of who sees it here you have to rely on either selling someone has either decided they want and are wanting to come up, or selling something they didn’t even know they want until they see it. 

Pedals I find sell easily enough on here guitars and amps sell much quicker on  Gumtree. 

I would rather drink bleach than use Gumtree tbf.

It might make you immune from covid though.

Strangefan

Edited.... Literally can't be arsed.