Football - Euro 2020 Championship

viz

Bridgehouse said:

Do you all promise to play nicely and keep the politics in the right section?

If so, carry on discussing the football. If not, it’ll be permanently closed. 

Michael Foot and Ed Ball were great politicians, IMO Anyway, what happens next, do they go back to their respective city clubs and hopefully get picked next time it comes round?

CHRISB50

Philly_Q said:

crunchman said:

You missed Hoddle off the list.  He was useless.  His man management skills were appalling.  He also went to the World Cup in 1998 with Graeme Le Saux as the only left footed player in the entire squad - and he promptly got injured.

I'm surprised Eileen Drewery wasn't able to get Graeme sorted out.  Maybe he didn't believe strongly enough.

Or maybe Graeme did something bad in a previous life and was being punished for it! 

UnclePsychosis

For me Southgate's biggest weakness is his in-game management. He's brilliant at putting a team together, clearly the best man-manager England have had in decades, but I think he's demonstrably lacking at changing things on the fly.

I get the impression he's a real analysis geek and everything is thought through to the nth degree. The problem with that approach is reacting in real time to opposition changes is almost the opposite of that.

As for penalties, I do wish people would stop calling it "a lottery". Its not. Its application of skill and mental fortitude combined. Continually accepting failure at shootouts because "oh well, its a lottery" is the path to... continued failure. 

russpm

There is a lot of focus on penalties, obviously, but it’s impossible to simulate the same situation in practice. The only way to get the relevant experience is to come through it as we did in the final.  Hopefully the experience will enable the England team to use that the next time they come around and the team will also be a little older, wiser and tougher. 

It’s got to be remembered Italy also had 2 failed penalties so the pressure got to them too.

Dead proud we got to the final and took the best team in the tournament all the way.

I’m Looking forward to another exciting tournament next year. 

Fretwired

Have some sympathy for Italian manager Mancini. He lost two penalty shootouts as a player with Italy including the 1990 World Cup. It's not just England that has a problem with penalty shootouts.

proggy

Philly_Q said:

Bridgehouse said:

Just to reiterate my warning - keep off the politics - there’s a bit of a sniff of it coming back in… please keep it on topic to the footy only please

Oh shit.  You said "footy"...

I don't care anymore Philly, I'm over it.
Footy......there, I said it.

Creed_Clicks

I think the Twitter thread below is very unfair and a bit rich coming from an Italian, where football violence, from what I have seen, is way worse than anything in the UK.
What I do not understand is how the hooligan problem has not presented itself with the Italian national team fans. I don't think I have ever heard or seen any clips of Italian fans fighting.

https://twitter.com/filippomricci/status/1414913410509201414

I'm not on Twitter so didn't comment, but people have been shot dead outside stadiums in Italy, someone bought a moped into the San Siro 20 years ago, and burned it on the terraces (how they got it in, I don't know), bloody hell, some stadiums have moats around the pitch to keep the fans out. A policeman lost a hand at a game as well from a flare. Don't get me started on racism in Italian football. And let us not forget the awful Roma ultras in Liverpool a few years back. So a bit rich from the Italians taking the moral high ground on this. I am not English, so all the one to me, but I do not think the Italians have been that gracious in victory.

munckee

@Creed_Clicks while I think in general we suffer a bit from our history that any violence near football is jumped on by the press both here and abroad, I take no comfort from the problems in other countries.  Even before the stadium security was breached you could see how it was going watching the build up. 

I spoke to a friend in London was around the ground and said the atmosphere started off good and as the day wore on and drink and drugs were flowing it got worse, he was also fairly convinced the same rent a mob who start trouble at protests in london were there causing trouble.

The reality of the racism situation is there were a couple of thousand unacceptable messages from a couple of hundred million who watched the game, the messages certainly weren't all from the UK.  It's totally wrong but I think things are improving, the more it's called out the better - but it shouldn't be reported as a worsening or a specifically English problem.

munckee

D'oh politics again.

Creed_Clicks

munckee said:

D'oh politics again.

It's not politics though.

Simonh

I'm not really into football that much but used to work with someone that was a proper "fan" went to all his team games home, away abroad etc. Also as it happens liked a bit of a rumble as he called it, his defense was that it was generally pre-arranged with the opposing teams "fans" and many times and locations would be arranged so as not to impact the general public or have them be caught by the police and so on.

No idea how true this was but he seemed well informed on the matter, his view that engaging in this sort of stuff abroad was a much more sketchy affair as they were likely to be more inclined to deadly violence.

Now with everything I took this with a pinch of salt but in everything else he wasn't really prone to exaggeration so at the very least my take away was there must be some core of truth in it.

Philly_Q

Simonh said:

I'm not really into football that much but used to work with someone that was a proper "fan" went to all his team games home, away abroad etc. Also as it happens liked a bit of a rumble as he called it, his defense was that it was generally pre-arranged with the opposing teams "fans" and many times and locations would be arranged so as not to impact the general public or have them be caught by the police and so on.

I used to work with someone (Leicester City supporter, as it happens) who told very similar stories.  I think it was probably true, he was the sort of person you could imagine doing that - big, loud and slightly aggressive even in everyday life.  He was actually very funny and likeable, but I wouldn't have wanted to get on the wrong side of him.

This was at least 15 years ago, I have no idea if that sort of thing still goes on.  I'd like to think it doesn't, but I don't move in those circles at all and it could easily still be there under the radar.

fob

Yeah, I knew someone who seemed to treat it as a hobby. Go for a pre-arranged punch-up before the match and the football was just secondary. He'd say how they'd sometimes end up in A&E with the very people that had put them there and they'd just chat and laugh about it all as if they'd just had a game of tennis together.

crunchman

There are people who go looking for trouble, not just at football matches.  My sister-in-law is a plod in the Met.  She told me that these people turned up at the Sarah Everard vigil that caused such controversy.  Some of her colleagues were attacked and ended up with significant injuries.  The same people were turning up at anti-capitalist and anti-vax demos, and anything else where they could cause trouble.

Getting back to football, and sort of on-topic, it does cause problems.  There are headlines now that say that this will adversely affect our chances of getting the 2030 World Cup.  I'm not sure what the solution is.

TeleMaster

This romantic idea of hooliganism is being told by people who view it all with rose tinted glasses, probably in order to protect their self image from the reality of it. 

The reality of it was that it wasn't just 'pre-organised'. People would get jumped on their way home after the game, before the game, people with their kids just because of the shirt they're wearing. People would get seriously injured. A single punch can leave people with incredibly life changing injuries, even kill them, and it happened. I remember going to see an away game with my stepdad and we couldn't go to the nearest station after the game because we would have been jumped on the platform by the home teams firm. I was about 14. It was a real threat.

There is a huge impact on services when your local A&E is filled up with idiots who think that it's okay to have pre organised fights, or attack and maim innocent people. Thankfully those days are largely long gone. 

Simonh

Nothing romantic about it, just pure thuggery. It is the same attitude than makes them think it is okay to abuse the players before, during or after a game.

One thing we should bear in mind is that those players only suffered racial abuse because they were black, if they had been white the abuse would have been just as vile. We should focus on removing all forms of abuse wherever we can.

skay

Please see my anti-racism change.org petition posted in Off Topic.

Please sign and share, as it’s clear that something needs to be done from above, and maybe a popular petition will get the attention of the press and government.

Thanks, Steven 

TeleMaster

Simonh said:

Nothing romantic about it, just pure thuggery. It is the same attitude than makes them think it is okay to abuse the players before, during or after a game.

One thing we should bear in mind is that those players only suffered racial abuse because they were black, if they had been white the abuse would have been just as vile. We should focus on removing all forms of abuse wherever we can.

This is getting political, so I'll keep it brief. But I do not agree fully with the second part of your statement, although I understand your sentiment comes from the right place.

My view is that racism is an extremely disruptive and marginalising form of discrimination that has historically been weaponised extremely successfully many times to devastating consequences. While awful, abuse to an individual is not the same as abuse that includes entire demographics. It is particularly harmful. In regards to football it kept black and Asian people out of the stands during the 20th century because they could be targeted because of poor performances and because far right groups organised on the stands. 

And in regards to the romance, it's not. But people do look at it like that. 

ewal

Simonh said:

Nothing romantic about it, just pure thuggery. It is the same attitude than makes them think it is okay to abuse the players before, during or after a game.

One thing we should bear in mind is that those players only suffered racial abuse because they were black, if they had been white the abuse would have been just as vile. We should focus on removing all forms of abuse wherever we can.

 Hmmm - would be interested in a discussion of where the line should be drawn between banter and abuse. However mindful of need to keep the politics and slagging matches out of this thread, so will just accept we all draw the line in different places. 

Have a good day.

skay

skay said:

Please see my anti-racism change.org petition posted in Off Topic.

Please sign and share, as it’s clear that something needs to be done from above, and maybe a popular petition will get the attention of the press and government.

Thanks, Steven 

Edit: ok this could be considered political, so please reply with any comments about this in the Off Topic thread, and leave this as a signpost to alert as many football fans to the petition as possible.