The Football Thread.

menamestom

Gassage said:

So, on Saturday, I attended the EPCR Champions Cup Final at Marseilles - La Rochelle v Leinster.

It was an incredible game, gladitorial, went down to the last second, physical and brutal beyond belief.

25k Leinster fans, 25k La Rochelle. 15k neutral. No segregation. Lots of people on the piss.

Not one arrest, not a punch thrown, delightful atmosphere and one of the best games you'll ever see. And the same French police who smiled, laughed and engaged.

I think I drew the long straw.

Why soccer is like this is beyond me.

It definitely starts with the youth system.  My lad tried both, and rugby was far better run.  They have a central Rugby England ethos built around player development and good sporting behaviour.  No descent is tolerated but it’s such a nice environment that the kids seem to really grow as individuals.  Parents help out and chat on the sidelines, there’s no massive team rivalry as it’s about making all the players better sportspeople rather than just winning.

Football by comparison seems far too competitive.  Entitled parents shouting at the ref and far less of a group ethos.  It’s all about their team, their child, and winning at all costs.  There’s this mentality that if you don’t ram the competitive nature down an 8 year olds throat then they won’t get it when they are older.

mudslide73

menamestom said:

Gassage said:

So, on Saturday, I attended the EPCR Champions Cup Final at Marseilles - La Rochelle v Leinster.

It was an incredible game, gladitorial, went down to the last second, physical and brutal beyond belief.

25k Leinster fans, 25k La Rochelle. 15k neutral. No segregation. Lots of people on the piss.

Not one arrest, not a punch thrown, delightful atmosphere and one of the best games you'll ever see. And the same French police who smiled, laughed and engaged.

I think I drew the long straw.

Why soccer is like this is beyond me.

It definitely starts with the youth system.  My lad tried both, and rugby was far better run.  They have a central Rugby England ethos built around player development and good sporting behaviour.  No descent is tolerated but it’s such a nice environment that the kids seem to really grow as individuals.  Parents help out and chat on the sidelines, there’s no massive team rivalry as it’s about making all the players better sportspeople rather than just winning.

Football by comparison seems far too competitive.  Entitled parents shouting at the ref and far less of a group ethos.  It’s all about their team, their child, and winning at all costs.  There’s this mentality that if you don’t ram the competitive nature down an 8 year olds throat then they won’t get it when they are older.

Junior football is very much as above until the penny drops for parents that their kid isn't going to make it. It also depends on the club you're part of and their ethos. We're still going at u17-u18 next season and it's now much closer to the rugby you describe. I'll be inconsolable when they all go their separate ways

Nitefly

Is anyone else watching this debacle at Molyneux?  

munckee

Nitefly said:

Is anyone else watching this debacle at Molyneux?  

Through my hands like when the daleks were on tv when I was a little kid. 

proggy

Although we're playing rubbish, that sending off was a joke.

Nitefly

munckee said:

Nitefly said:

Is anyone else watching this debacle at Molyneux?  

Through my hands like when the daleks were on tv when I was a little kid. 

... and just when you thought it couldn't get worse...

TTony

Nitefly said:

Is anyone else watching this debacle at Molyneux?  

Hungary aren't really playing fair though.

When they get the ball, they kick it *forwards*.  And some of their players seem to run with the ball past our players.

That's not how the game is played.  You're supposed to play it sideways, sideways, sideways, backwards, backwards, then you're allowed a forward pass, as long as you then play backwards, backwards, sideways.  And trying to run past a player on the other team?  Since when was that part of football?

guitars4you

Think it has been brewing for a while - devoid of ideas/plan especially in the final 3rd - You have Kane, Sterling, Foden, Mount, Grealish, Saka - All talented and with plenty of flare for their clubs - But just not bonding at all

I know it is a poxy tournament - And even more so when after the season has just finished, pre season for many is only a couple of weeks away, then the world cup at the end of the year - IMO they should be re-charging their batteries - But no excuses for a lethargic effort - No goal in open play in 360 mins and very little idea of when/where this goal will come from - What's is that if Kane gets injured we have no other option - So looks like we'll be in for a another 'as usual' WC performance 

thecolourbox

I stopped watching England matches in 2007. I get enough disappointment watching West Brom let alone watching a bunch of opposition players shoved together

guitars4you

thecolourbox said:

I stopped watching England matches in 2007. I get enough disappointment watching West Brom let alone watching a bunch of opposition players shoved together

I admit I'm club first and only take a passing interest in watching England 

TTony

guitars4you said:

Think it has been brewing for a while - devoid of ideas/plan especially in the final 3rd - You have Kane, Sterling, Foden, Mount, Grealish, Saka - All talented and with plenty of flare for their clubs - But just not bonding at all

How many players has Southgate selected in his time as manager?  I'd be willing to bet that the number of players, averaged over games played in the period, is higher than any other England manager.

He seems to be constantly tinkering and picking new players, presumably to see how they perform.  But what chance do they have - against decent opposition (which apparently includes Hungary now) - who have an established team ethos, bond and style of play*.

Right now, I'd back Wales to beat England.


*Actually, on second thoughts, England do seem to have an established style of play.  See comment above re backwards, backwards, sideways, backwards, sideways, sideways ...

TTony

guitars4you said:

thecolourbox said:

I stopped watching England matches in 2007. I get enough disappointment watching West Brom let alone watching a bunch of opposition players shoved together

I admit I'm club first and only take a passing interest in watching England 

That's a sideways passing interest, presumably?

DesVegas

What amazed me was England managed to let 4 goals in without Maguire on the pitch.

munckee

That’s the main problem really if you’re bringing Maguire on to shore up your defence that’s telling. 

Walker is one of the best right backs in the world, but he isn’t a central defender. Phillips who I generally like had a poor game last night. 

Bowen hasn’t made much of an impact. 

My other thought watching last night is that whilst the keeper wasn’t really at fault I thought Pickford may have stopped a couple of them going in. 

TeleMaster

With the racism episode, and the fact Hungary took advantage of the rules surrounding their attendance ban, you'd have hoped that England would use this as a chance for revenge, to show them that we mean business, but we completely capitulated.

I like Southgate and he's been our most successful manager since Ramsey, and we have done extraordinarily well, but my observation is that we have always relied on set pieces, find it difficult to score in open play and cannot beat the best teams. These players score week in week out against teams of a higher quality (it is my opinion that the Champions League and Premier League is of higher quality than the WC and Euros) so I do think that Southgate has done all he can with this team and the players know this as well. He's obviously a step down for a lot of them after playing with the likes of Klopp, Pep, Tuchel etc. 

I believe that Southgate should lead the team out in Qatar but I don't think we'll do that well in the World Cup, and I expect that he will resign after it. If I were ruthless I'd say that we should make a manager change now because the signs don't for success don't look good, but I know they won't do that, and I think it would be unfair. But we aren't going to win it with this stale, negative style of play that doesn't seem to allow goalscoring players to score goals. 

usedtobe

Only found out they’d played after it was all over.. when I have seen England, I’ve found them quite boring to watch..

Teetonetal

TeleMaster said:

With the racism episode, and the fact Hungary took advantage of the rules surrounding their attendance ban, you'd have hoped that England would use this as a chance for revenge, to show them that we mean business, but we completely capitulated.

I like Southgate and he's been our most successful manager since Ramsey, and we have done extraordinarily well, but my observation is that we have always relied on set pieces, find it difficult to score in open play and cannot beat the best teams. These players score week in week out against teams of a higher quality (it is my opinion that the Champions League and Premier League is of higher quality than the WC and Euros) so I do think that Southgate has done all he can with this team and the players know this as well. He's obviously a step down for a lot of them after playing with the likes of Klopp, Pep, Tuchel etc. 

I believe that Southgate should lead the team out in Qatar but I don't think we'll do that well in the World Cup, and I expect that he will resign after it. If I were ruthless I'd say that we should make a manager change now because the signs don't for success don't look good, but I know they won't do that, and I think it would be unfair. But we aren't going to win it with this stale, negative style of play that doesn't seem to allow goalscoring players to score goals. 

I think it's quite difficult to judge with these games. To my mind the players look physically spent. They need a rest and this was nothing more than an exercise in going through the motions. I would much preferred that they had a short training camp, then a holiday to come back ready for the pre season and WC in the winter.

That said, Southgate is too conservative for my taste - but he had a good WC in Russia and a Good EU so I think he deserves a shot at the next one - but unless he gets to the Semis or higher, I think that would be a good time to change, before some of our bigger players age too much.

TeleMaster

Teetonetal said:

TeleMaster said:

With the racism episode, and the fact Hungary took advantage of the rules surrounding their attendance ban, you'd have hoped that England would use this as a chance for revenge, to show them that we mean business, but we completely capitulated.

I like Southgate and he's been our most successful manager since Ramsey, and we have done extraordinarily well, but my observation is that we have always relied on set pieces, find it difficult to score in open play and cannot beat the best teams. These players score week in week out against teams of a higher quality (it is my opinion that the Champions League and Premier League is of higher quality than the WC and Euros) so I do think that Southgate has done all he can with this team and the players know this as well. He's obviously a step down for a lot of them after playing with the likes of Klopp, Pep, Tuchel etc. 

I believe that Southgate should lead the team out in Qatar but I don't think we'll do that well in the World Cup, and I expect that he will resign after it. If I were ruthless I'd say that we should make a manager change now because the signs don't for success don't look good, but I know they won't do that, and I think it would be unfair. But we aren't going to win it with this stale, negative style of play that doesn't seem to allow goalscoring players to score goals. 

I think it's quite difficult to judge with these games. To my mind the players look physically spent. They need a rest and this was nothing more than an exercise in going through the motions. I would much preferred that they had a short training camp, then a holiday to come back ready for the pre season and WC in the winter.

That said, Southgate is too conservative for my taste - but he had a good WC in Russia and a Good EU so I think he deserves a shot at the next one - but unless he gets to the Semis or higher, I think that would be a good time to change, before some of our bigger players age too much.

I think the final positions were good but England didn't really play many teams of high quality in either of those tournaments. And a high reliance on set pieces masked the overall low standard of play from England. So in my opinion, its only a matter of time before we are knocked out early on. 

axisus

We have some incredible talent right now, I hope that we aren't going to waste them like we have previously. For me Southgate is too cautious, we should have won the Euros vs Italy.

It's a bit of a Meh tournament. I don't even know what the format is. We will judge them on the World cup.

NorthernGooner

Amazing how many England players needed two touches to bring the ball under control because they're
so one footed. No composure on the ball when pressed which they were all game. You could see the Hungary players had a point to prove to put our overpaid mollycoddled lot in their place.