The F1 thread

Dontgiveupyourdayjob

boogieman said:

I was SO hoping the Ferraris could fend off Max and get the win but it’s just not going to happen this season is it? As ever the most entertaining bits were further down the order. Very impressed with Albon, he’s making that Williams really fly lately. 

Albon seems to be driving the wheels of that Williams, though it's hard to know exactly how much he's being flattered by having a bit a useless teammate. 

As with a majority of races this year it was actually really entertaining with great wheel to wheel racing throughout most of the field, but unfortunately with a very predictable winner.

sinbaadi

It is fascinating that the media try to inject some excitement into this RBR era of dominance by focusing on the record breaking.  Max doesn't care about that any more than Toto.

Max knows that this is his opportunity.  Just as Lewis had, as Vettel had, as Schumacher had (how many world champion team mates did the two Germans have throughout their careers btw?).

If he is anything other than unforgivingly, relentlessly, ruthlessly taking every single point that this opportunity presents, then he is going to be performing to a lower standard than at any other time in his career.  For him giving a single point away unnecessarily is a failure, even if he wins the title anyway.

I don't like him a lot and he is a total hypocrite when it comes to racing incidents, but I do admire that aspect of his performance.

boogieman

I don’t blame Max either, it’s just a shame he’s such an obnoxious arsehole. 

Cols

boogieman said:

I don’t blame Max either, it’s just a shame he’s such an obnoxious arsehole. 

Sadly, that’s been a basic feature of nearly every F1 World Champion for as long as I’ve been watching the sport.  

The only exceptions in my time have been Hill, Button and Hakkinen (the last mitigated by Ron Dennis conducting obnoxious arsehole duties on his behalf).

Verstappen has, however, taken arseholery to a whole new level.

Dontgiveupyourdayjob

Cols said:

boogieman said:

I don’t blame Max either, it’s just a shame he’s such an obnoxious arsehole. 

Sadly, that’s been a basic feature of nearly every F1 World Champion for as long as I’ve been watching the sport.  

The only exceptions in my time have been Hill, Button and Hakkinen (the last mitigated by Ron Dennis conducting obnoxious arsehole duties on his behalf).

Verstappen has, however, taken arseholery to a whole new level.

I think a lot of that comes down to age/experience. Vettel was a petulant little arse while winning championships at Red Bull, but was very young. As he got older (possibly wiser) he became far more likeable. Alonso could be right dick in his youth, but now everyone seems to love him. A lot of people didn't take to Lewis in his early years at McLaren but now I feel he's a lot more widely liked/respected. 

I feel like Hill, Button and Hakkinen that you reference were all a little bit older and more experienced when they won WDCs.

I think Max has actually become a bit more likeable in the past year or two, albeit from starting from a very low point!

Hoof

sinbaadi said:

Max knows that this is his opportunity.  Just as Lewis had, as Vettel had, as Schumacher had (how many world champion team mates did the two Germans have throughout their careers btw?).

One each. Vettel had Kimi at Ferrari, Schumacher had Rosberg as Merc (although obviously not WCD until a few years after). 

Hoof

Dontgiveupyourdayjob said:

Cols said:

boogieman said:

I don’t blame Max either, it’s just a shame he’s such an obnoxious arsehole. 

Sadly, that’s been a basic feature of nearly every F1 World Champion for as long as I’ve been watching the sport.  

The only exceptions in my time have been Hill, Button and Hakkinen (the last mitigated by Ron Dennis conducting obnoxious arsehole duties on his behalf).

Verstappen has, however, taken arseholery to a whole new level.

I think a lot of that comes down to age/experience. Vettel was a petulant little arse while winning championships at Red Bull, but was very young. As he got older (possibly wiser) he became far more likeable. Alonso could be right dick in his youth, but now everyone seems to love him. A lot of people didn't take to Lewis in his early years at McLaren but now I feel he's a lot more widely liked/respected. 

I feel like Hill, Button and Hakkinen that you reference were all a little bit older and more experienced when they won WDCs.

I think Max has actually become a bit more likeable in the past year or two, albeit from starting from a very low point!

Hill was less experienced, I think 1996 was his 4th season. Max's first WDC was in his seventh season I think.

FelineGuitars

I’m finding the Red Bull Dominance so boring because once Max is ahead he seems to win by half a minute or more .
Adrian Newey must be delighted with his hard work paying off 

I was so glad Ferrari let their two drivers tussle it out and give us some decent racing.

I know team bosses are always upset when it happens because winning or points are more important in the short run, but for fans of F1 it is what we remember - it’s the balls out wheel to wheel stuff and acts of seeming lunacy that we all recall - like Giles Villeneuve driving with that shredded tire , or Lewis Hamilton winning the british GP with basically no front tire on one side - held together by willpower.

F1 is so sanitised with full safety cars if someone stops(kind of understandable but it breaks the flow so much) that it is the real racing moments that make it occasionally breathtaking to watch again 
Didn’t we have something similar with Alonso earlier in the season too?

Cols

Hoof said:

Dontgiveupyourdayjob said:

I think Max has actually become a bit more likeable in the past year or two, albeit from starting from a very low point!

Hill was less experienced, I think 1996 was his 4th season. Max's first WDC was in his seventh season I think.

Verstappen’s a bit more relaxed these days as he doesn’t really have any competition, either within the team or externally.  I guarantee you that if he started getting regularly beat again the ‘entitled dick’ persona would return.

Hill was quite old (past 30 I think) by the time he made it into F1, having come up through the ranks in F3 and F3000 before a longish stint as Williams test driver.

Verstappen, on the other hand, had a single season of Euro F3 before being landing in Toro Rosso at the tender age of 17. 

RiftAmps

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fia-reveals-all-10-f1-teams-met-2022-cost-cap/10516548/

stickyfiddle

RiftAmps said:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fia-reveals-all-10-f1-teams-met-2022-cost-cap/10516548/

I'm honestly slightly disappointed! 

As for the Max/RB records, Toto is probably remembering 2016 where his guys won all but 2, and one of those was the infamous Spain race where they drove into each other. And let's be honest.. if they'd had Perez instead of Rosberg then Lewis would have won all but 1 that year, and you have to assume if Lewis hadn't had to push so hard against Nico then his engine might not have gone pop from the lead in Malaysia either.  

But what is true is that even after Rosberg retired at the end of 2017, multiple drivers ran Mercedes close for wins even in their most dominant years, and Bottas was genuinely better than Hamilton on some days. Whereas at this point in 2023 it's essentially a foregone conclusion that Max will win every race barring mechanical issues or utter insanity with late-race safety cars or somesuch. Perez isn't even close and that's clear to everyone paying attention. And ironically, behind Max it's actually a pretty vintage season. It'd be interesting to see some race roundups written from a perspective that omits Max from the standings entirely

sinbaadi

It's kind of funny that Lewis is saying that having team mates that at times could beat him, across a race, across a season occasionally, and therefore that his championships were harder fought, and so worth more..... essentially means that his titles are with more, and therefore he should be thought of as stronger (than Max who has journeyman Perez at the moment).

Funny logic to refer to the fact that people could beat you as a way of proving that you're better.

stickyfiddle

sinbaadi said:

It's kind of funny that Lewis is saying that having team mates that at times could beat him, across a race, across a season occasionally, and therefore that his championships were harder fought, and so worth more..... essentially means that his titles are with more, and therefore he should be thought of as stronger (than Max who has journeyman Perez at the moment).

Funny logic to refer to the fact that people could beat you as a way of proving that you're better.

Lewis is right though. He's been up against multiple champions, remembering also that Rosberg is the only teammate ever to beat Schumacher (admittedly an older chilled Schumi, but still..). Max has been up against Perez, and before that a bunch of rookies and Ricciardo (who while I still really like, let's be honest the jury's out currently)

If RB had had the balls to hire Alonso and Max did to him what he's done to Checo it would be a very different story. 

fretmeister

sinbaadi said:

It's kind of funny that Lewis is saying that having team mates that at times could beat him, across a race, across a season occasionally, and therefore that his championships were harder fought, and so worth more..... essentially means that his titles are with more, and therefore he should be thought of as stronger (than Max who has journeyman Perez at the moment).

Funny logic to refer to the fact that people could beat you as a way of proving that you're better.

It's not weird at all.

Would Senna or Prost have been viewed in the same high regard without them at each other's throats for half a decade? Nope.

Boromedic

Same reason Alonso is held in the highest regard, by beating Schumacher in his prime especially in 2006 in an arguably weaker car. 

Look Max is a great driver, but... with the exception of one season where he ran Lewis hard, effectively broke the rules on a few occasions to try to beat him, and still needed the stewards to give him the title, he's not really had to beat anyone of a similar calibre in the same car. Jensen and Rosberg aren't Lewis level talents for sure, but they were better drivers than Perez is. 

Cols

Hamilton had to work bloody hard at beating Alonso, Button and Rosberg, World Champions all.  

After Rosberg threw in the towel, the replacement Bottas was less of a problem.  Fast enough to be right up behind Lewis and even to win on the odd day when things didn’t work out well, but never close enough for there to be any doubt about who was top dog.

dazzajl

And there’s the rub. Max might be as good as anyone who’s ever won a championship but until he’s really tested, no one outside his fan base is going to afford him the same respect as the drivers who were. 

However, he doesn’t seem to care how he wins so he’s perfectly happy with the situation and I doubt he’s going to lose a single winks sleep over what I think. 

Cols

Verstappen hasn’t had to deal with a top drawer driver in his own team since Ricciardo.  Even with that, he wasn’t beating DR until Horner/Marko plainly nailed their colours to the Verstappen mast and made it abundantly clear that, in the event of a squabble, they were going to back Max to the hilt.  This is always the way Red Bull have operated - they pick a favourite driver and get right behind him.

After Ricciardo left at the end of 2018 the team had the opportunity to bring seasoned pro Carlos Sainz Jr into the team.  At the time he was still contracted to Red Bull but on loan to Renault.

Max was distinctly unenthusiastic about this idea - Carlos had been just as fast as him at Toro Rosso, and the two hadn’t got on well.  It’s rumoured (and strongly denied by Marko) that Verstappen exercised a veto over the move.

Whatever the truth of the matter, the inexperienced Gasly was prematurely elevated to the top team, followed by the similarly ill-fated Albon.  Neither were destined to give Max any trouble, and Perez was openly engaged to be a safe and steady wingman.

Checo is clearly on the way out now.  Ricciardo is evidently the favoured replacement, but there’s also rumours that Red Bull are looking at breaking Lando Norris out of his McLaren contract.  Now wouldn’t that be interesting?

Boromedic

Lando in a Red Bull would be absolutely amazing but he's not as ruthless as Max nor is he quite on Max's level, so whilst Lando would run him hard, Max would no doubt win the most races for me. That being said he would take wins off him and he wouldn't get 10 in a row!

Would love to see it nonetheless!

fretmeister

I don't think we can judge Lando like that yet. He's never been in a position to be ruthless or having a winning car.

Maybe the McLaren will be the one to catch RB next year?