The F1 thread

stickyfiddle

Honestly I think Lando would be nuts to go to RB now. Granted no one is beating them under these regs, but RB isn’t going to let anyone beat Max, so what would be the point? 

 McLaren is genuinely the only team to take a comprehensive step up this year (& maybe Williams?) so if they keep that trajectory that won’t be a bad place to be, and he’s absolutely #1 there right now 

Emiel

Norris will be plenty busy dealing with his rookie teammate Piastri, who's getting really up to speed now. I'm really impressed with the Australian youngster, he's quick, doesn't make many mistakes plus he has a calm head.

Max has been absolutely faultless after since he became a WC, to a degree I haven't seen since the best years of Michael Schumacher.

rlw

Re the Verstappen winning streak, we've seen similar domination before by teams and/or drivers and I think that we have to admit that the driver with the best car is more than likely to do better than the the others. Schumacher and Hamilton both proved this in the past.

But has there ever been such a better car than the rest?  Not knocking Max but RB really have delivered the goods this season.

euan

In hindsight, makes a mockery of their sporting penalty. 

stickyfiddle

rlw said:

Re the Verstappen winning streak, we've seen similar domination before by teams and/or drivers and I think that we have to admit that the driver with the best car is more than likely to do better than the the others. Schumacher and Hamilton both proved this in the past.

But has there ever been such a better car than the rest?  Not knocking Max but RB really have delivered the goods this season.

Who knows tbh. If they had Perez and e.g. Hulk driving for them we'd probably be saying what a close fight it was between Merc and AM, and how could Newey not quite get a handle on these earo-heavy regs. 

The same has probably happened before with other cars. I've heard guys from the F1 community suggest that if Alonso had been in the Lotus/Renault in 2012/2013 instead of Kimi he'd have given Vettel a much better run for the title than Kimi managed. There must be more examples. 

Cols

stickyfiddle said:

rlw said:

Re the Verstappen winning streak, we've seen similar domination before by teams and/or drivers and I think that we have to admit that the driver with the best car is more than likely to do better than the the others. Schumacher and Hamilton both proved this in the past.

But has there ever been such a better car than the rest?  Not knocking Max but RB really have delivered the goods this season.

Who knows tbh. If they had Perez and e.g. Hulk driving for them we'd probably be saying what a close fight it was between Merc and AM, and how could Newey not quite get a handle on these earo-heavy regs. 

Somewhat counter-intuitively, I think Pérez would be driving a lot better if it wasn’t Verstappen in the other car.  

He’s taken a psychological kicking this year ever since he started to openly suggest that it was Game On for the title.  Max has absolutely pasted him since that point and the quality of his driving - historically, good rather than great - has suffered accordingly.

The same has probably happened before with other cars. I've heard guys from the F1 community suggest that if Alonso had been in the Lotus/Renault in 2012/2013 instead of Kimi he'd have given Vettel a much better run for the title than Kimi managed. There must be more examples. 

The one which sticks in my head is Jacques Villeneuve making an absolute pig’s ear of securing the 1997 championship in an overwhelmingly superior Williams-Renault.  Halfway through the season team members were openly muttering “If we still had Damon driving for us we’d have won this thing by now”.

Emiel

rlw said:

Re the Verstappen winning streak, we've seen similar domination before by teams and/or drivers and I think that we have to admit that the driver with the best car is more than likely to do better than the the others. Schumacher and Hamilton both proved this in the past.

But has there ever been such a better car than the rest?  Not knocking Max but RB really have delivered the goods this season.

Did you start watching F1 in 2022?

What about...

- Mercedes finished 1st and 2nd in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2019. When they didn't win it usually was because of a collision or reliability issues. Imagine their winning tally if Rosberg would have continued and Ferrari didn't muck around with their engines...
- Ferrari finishing an easy 1st and 2nd in 2002 and 2004. 
- Williams got 1st and 2nd in 1996 with a superior car and engine (can't say that about their drivers).
- Williams in 1992, 1993: best car, best engine, often qualifying second(s) in front of rivalling teams.
- McLaren in 1988, 1989: the best car and engine AND the best driver pair with Prost & Senna.

stickyfiddle

Cols said:

stickyfiddle said:

rlw said:

Re the Verstappen winning streak, we've seen similar domination before by teams and/or drivers and I think that we have to admit that the driver with the best car is more than likely to do better than the the others. Schumacher and Hamilton both proved this in the past.

But has there ever been such a better car than the rest?  Not knocking Max but RB really have delivered the goods this season.

Who knows tbh. If they had Perez and e.g. Hulk driving for them we'd probably be saying what a close fight it was between Merc and AM, and how could Newey not quite get a handle on these earo-heavy regs. 

Somewhat counter-intuitively, I think Pérez would be driving a lot better if it wasn’t Verstappen in the other car.  

He’s taken a psychological kicking this year ever since he started to openly suggest that it was Game On for the title.  Max has absolutely pasted him since that point and the quality of his driving - historically, good rather than great - has suffered accordingly.

I completely agree. Perez has been much better since accepting that he ain't winning the WDC this year. And so if he'd had a regular teammate then maybe he'd have had a better run of results 

fretmeister

Emiel said:

rlw said:

Re the Verstappen winning streak, we've seen similar domination before by teams and/or drivers and I think that we have to admit that the driver with the best car is more than likely to do better than the the others. Schumacher and Hamilton both proved this in the past.

But has there ever been such a better car than the rest?  Not knocking Max but RB really have delivered the goods this season.

Did you start watching F1 in 2022?

What about...

- Mercedes finished 1st and 2nd in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2019. When they didn't win it usually was because of a collision or reliability issues. Imagine their winning tally if Rosberg would have continued and Ferrari didn't muck around with their engines...
- Ferrari finishing an easy 1st and 2nd in 2002 and 2004. 
- Williams got 1st and 2nd in 1996 with a superior car and engine (can't say that about their drivers).
- Williams in 1992, 1993: best car, best engine, often qualifying second(s) in front of rivalling teams.
- McLaren in 1988, 1989: the best car and engine AND the best driver pair with Prost & Senna.

All true but also largely irrelevant to the point I think.
The issue isn't winning alone, it's the margins. The RB margin of winning to the next team is massive.

I've been watching since Alan Jones was WC and I've never seen a car consistently so much faster than the other teams, not even the Gordon Murray designed ones.

TimmyO

stickyfiddle said:

rlw said:

Re the Verstappen winning streak, we've seen similar domination before by teams and/or drivers and I think that we have to admit that the driver with the best car is more than likely to do better than the the others. Schumacher and Hamilton both proved this in the past.

But has there ever been such a better car than the rest?  Not knocking Max but RB really have delivered the goods this season.

Who knows tbh. If they had Perez and e.g. Hulk driving for them we'd probably be saying what a close fight it was between Merc and AM, and how could Newey not quite get a handle on these earo-heavy regs. 

The same has probably happened before with other cars. I've heard guys from the F1 community suggest that if Alonso had been in the Lotus/Renault in 2012/2013 instead of Kimi he'd have given Vettel a much better run for the title than Kimi managed. There must be more examples. 

Didn’t the 6-wheeler meet the then regs and thrash everyone and get withdrawn voluntarily mid season? 

stickyfiddle

I thought that was the Brabham fan car - won 1 race by a massive margin and was then withdrawn? 

goldtop

stickyfiddle said:

I thought that was the Brabham fan car - won 1 race by a massive margin and was then withdrawn? 

Wow - I've got dim memories of that. Did they just change the regs to outlaw it on the spot? Seems a bit mean.

TimmyO

stickyfiddle said:

I thought that was the Brabham fan car - won 1 race by a massive margin and was then withdrawn? 

I had a vague recollection it was one or the other 

Cols

goldtop said:

stickyfiddle said:

I thought that was the Brabham fan car - won 1 race by a massive margin and was then withdrawn? 

Wow - I've got dim memories of that. Did they just change the regs to outlaw it on the spot? Seems a bit mean.

No, Bernie Ecclestone - Brabham team owner at the time - had his eye on the rather larger prize of getting full control of the Formula One Constructors Association.

The other teams were extremely upset about the fan car and tried to get it banned on technical grounds.  When this failed, rival drivers started to complain that it was unsafe, throwing dirt and stones into following cars.

In order to placate the other teams, Bernie agreed to withdraw the car after only one race (which Lauda won easily).

To this date, it remains the only F1 car with a 100% win record - which Red Bull are showing every sign of equaling this year.

goldtop

Had to be a Bernie plan!

rlw

Emiel said:

rlw said:

Re the Verstappen winning streak, we've seen similar domination before by teams and/or drivers and I think that we have to admit that the driver with the best car is more than likely to do better than the the others. Schumacher and Hamilton both proved this in the past.

But has there ever been such a better car than the rest?  Not knocking Max but RB really have delivered the goods this season.

Did you start watching F1 in 2022?

What about...

- Mercedes finished 1st and 2nd in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2019. When they didn't win it usually was because of a collision or reliability issues. Imagine their winning tally if Rosberg would have continued and Ferrari didn't muck around with their engines...
- Ferrari finishing an easy 1st and 2nd in 2002 and 2004. 
- Williams got 1st and 2nd in 1996 with a superior car and engine (can't say that about their drivers).
- Williams in 1992, 1993: best car, best engine, often qualifying second(s) in front of rivalling teams.
- McLaren in 1988, 1989: the best car and engine AND the best driver pair with Prost & Senna.

First GP i went to was won by Jim Clark if that helps......................... Last one I attended in the UK was won by Jaques Lafitte.  Last one I attended was at Monza and won by Gerhard Berger with Alboretto second.   Have attended numerous test days and qualifying since then but prefer my comfy sofa come race day.

So back to school laddie.

If you read what was written, you will see that I acknowledge that the better car usually wins.  The question being, has there ever been a car so much better than the rest.  

In the past, drivers would often win by up to 60 seonds against poor opposition but that faded away over the last ten to fifteen years as all the teams improved.  Now, we are looking at Max winning, easily, by upwards of 30 seconds every time.

So, has there been another car so superior in the past.  Consistently, not luckily, or against shite opposition?

.

JEM

What's a bit worrying about the current RB domination is that in race trim it possibly has even more of an advantage than it appears. At Monza it took Max a while to get past Sainz but it's not a particularly easy circuit to pass on due DRS being much less effective (hence Albon was able to hold onto 7th). Once he took the lead Max was gaining a second a lap until he had a decent gap and then cruised home.

You can tell from his incredibly calm demeanour on the cool down laps, Max is winning these races at a canter. I suspect no one will get close to challenging RB/MV until the regs change again.

stickyfiddle

Guys used tj win by 60+ in the old days hit that wasn’t usually that the corners weren’t fast enough, it was that many of the fast ones couldn’t get to the end of the race.  

Max took a good number of laps to take the lead this week, then clearly wasn’t trying hard once got he got there and still won by miles, while apparently also nursing some technical isssue 

sinbaadi

The car Vs car Vs driver Vs driver debate rears its head once again.

Is Max at full attack 100%?  Or is it the classic of him getting 101% out of the car?  Maybe he's only getting 99.8% out of the car and LeClerc could beat him?  But maybe Max would be faster in the Ferrari?  Or maybe Max would be faster than anyone in any car given car?  

All very pertinent and ultimately unanswerable questions because this is F1.

It would be a brave bet to place on anyone being able to beat Max, but at the same time Perez is the epitome of average and only there because he brings the big bucks with him, so not a worthy benchmark by any stretch and would make most others look good in the same situation.

Boromedic

I dunno, put Fernando, Lewis, Charles or Lando in that second car, they could beat Max, I think that would be a decent bet. Max is the same level as those guys imo, and they would show that in equal machinery.