The F1 thread

Boromedic

sinbaadi said:

Boromedic said:

sinbaadi said:

Agree there's a difference between needing and wanting.  

If Max is good enough to "outperform" the car (not that I subscribe to that) then it shouldn't matter who they partner him with.  I really doubt that Max has made such demands other than: being number one, never having to be disadvantaged by team orders, and a stupid salary.  He doesn't care who is in the other car.  I don't even think he particularly cares that there is another car.  He is not a team player.

This is naive in the extreme, and you haven't read what I actually said. I don't believe it's all Max's wishes, however to think he doesn't prefer a slower team mate is ridiculous. It's mostly the team trying to keep him happy, not upsetting the status quo. If they suddenly signed Carlos, and kicked out Perez, Max and his Dad would be kicking open Horners door and causing issues.

They also know Max would be smashing both cars off the circuit to try to beat a better team mate as he is so win at all costs, Red Bull have avoided this since the Seb/Mark days.

I might say that suggesting that he is making the car go faster than it can go is "naive in the extreme".

Maybe if you are a pedant, which you clearly are, it's a legitimate statement used by fans and pundits alike. If it's too much for you, how about Max is placing the car higher on the grid than a more average driver (Perez) is able to. Is that better for you? 

sinbaadi

Boromedic said:

sinbaadi said:

Boromedic said:

sinbaadi said:

Agree there's a difference between needing and wanting.  

If Max is good enough to "outperform" the car (not that I subscribe to that) then it shouldn't matter who they partner him with.  I really doubt that Max has made such demands other than: being number one, never having to be disadvantaged by team orders, and a stupid salary.  He doesn't care who is in the other car.  I don't even think he particularly cares that there is another car.  He is not a team player.

This is naive in the extreme, and you haven't read what I actually said. I don't believe it's all Max's wishes, however to think he doesn't prefer a slower team mate is ridiculous. It's mostly the team trying to keep him happy, not upsetting the status quo. If they suddenly signed Carlos, and kicked out Perez, Max and his Dad would be kicking open Horners door and causing issues.

They also know Max would be smashing both cars off the circuit to try to beat a better team mate as he is so win at all costs, Red Bull have avoided this since the Seb/Mark days.

I might say that suggesting that he is making the car go faster than it can go is "naive in the extreme".

Maybe if you are a pedant, which you clearly are, it's a legitimate statement used by fans and pundits alike. If it's too much for you, how about Max is placing the car higher on the grid than a more average driver (Perez) is able to. Is that better for you? 

Oh you mean he's faster than Perez?  Hadn't noticed that, how naive I am.

Boromedic

See, now you're just being obtuse. 

A number of experts, and pundits who know way more about this stuff than you or I, think Max is extracting more from the car than almost any other driver could. Whilst you're not of the opinion that a driver could do this, unless you're a championship winning open wheel racer, or a WEC driver like some of the experts we read, watch and listen to are, then what you say is of no bearing anyway, and neither is what I say too.

You knew what I meant anyway, but if you want to act like a 3 year old, then I'll be explaining it to you like you are one. 

Anyway, I know who's opinions I believe, and they won't be yours. Jog on.....

DesVegas

I like bread

Boromedic

DesVegas said:

I like bread

And jam?

sinbaadi

I would say more sarcastic than obtuse. 

Look if you want to think what you think then great.  Repeat someone's hyperbole without actually thinking about what it means, and if you want to get defensive if anything or anyone challenges that, then that's your prerogative.

Boromedic

sinbaadi said:

I would say more sarcastic than obtuse. 

Look if you want to think what you think then great.  Repeat someone's hyperbole without actually thinking about what it means, and if you want to get defensive if anything or anyone challenges that, then that's your prerogative.

Lol, what a load of toss, I just disagree with you and I'm willing to stand by it. Funny how that's being defensive, when I'm behaving exactly like you.

The fact I agree with pundits opinions after listening and thinking about them myself isn't just repeating them. It's considering what they say, and either agreeing to some degree, or not agreeing in the same way.

Unlike being a contrarian on the internet for the sake of being different....

fretmeister

No it isn't.

Boromedic

fretmeister said:

No it isn't.

Oh yes it is....

Cols

Steady on chaps.

Borimedic is right that Verstappen is most likely able to extract more performance out of the Red Bull than any other driver on the grid.

And Sinbaadi is right that there’s a limit, and no matter how good a driver you are you can’t make it go faster than its capabilities.  We could see that in 2022 when Hamilton and Russell were having trouble scraping out of Q1.

I think there was an interview with Russell, Norris and Verstappen last year where they were asked “If you were all given the same car, who would be fastest?”, and one of them - Norris, I think, possibly Russell - very cleverly said “Depends which car it was.  If it was the McLaren, Lando.  If it was the Red Bull, Max.  The Merc, George.”

Which is pretty much spot on.  A fast car is a fast car, but most drivers will have a preference for how that performance comes.  The Red Bull seems twitchy, but Max seems quite happy with twitchy and evidently Red Bull have gone in that direction over a number of years.  Schumacher would also prioritise a responsive front end, confident that he’d be able to keep the rear in line.  Prost, on the other hand, would prefer a nice gentle understeer so he could earhole the shit out of the car without worrying about the rear end stepping out.

Alonso’s a bit of an outlier.  It doesn’t seem to matter what characteristics a car has, he’s always murderously quick.

Anyway you’re both right.  Now can we get back onto safe ground topics, like how lovely it was to see Geri dragged kicking and screaming back into the light of day along with her sprigs to “put on a united front with her husband Horny Horner”?  Haven’t seen her since the season opener.

Brio

I always liked her sprigs.

RiftAmps

Cols said:

And Sinbaadi is right that there’s a limit, and no matter how good a driver you are you can’t make it go faster than its capabilities.

Actually, that's incorrect. It is entirely possible to produce a lap time faster than the car's theoretical best. It happens all the time and is what separates the great drivers from the good. The innate ability to control an unstable car is why some drivers such as George Russell could put a back-of-the-grid Williams in the top-6 consistently, whereas their teammates struggled to get off the back row.

The best drivers can out-drive their cars, without overdriving them.

Cols

RiftAmps said:

Cols said:

And Sinbaadi is right that there’s a limit, and no matter how good a driver you are you can’t make it go faster than its capabilities.

Actually, that's incorrect. It is entirely possible to produce a lap time faster than the car's theoretical best. It happens all the time and is what separates the great drivers from the good. The innate ability to control an unstable car is why some drivers such as George Russell could put a back-of-the-grid Williams in the top-6 consistently, whereas their teammates struggled to get off the back row.

The best drivers can out-drive their cars, without overdriving them.

We’re probably talking at cross purposes here.

No matter how good a driver you are driving talent alone will not give an extra 50 bhp, or generate more downforce, or magically reduce drag.  That’s what I (and I suspect sinbaadi) meant - at some point the capabilities of the car become limiting.  

The mark of a great driver is to be able to fully access the available performance of the car.  Verstappen can access more of the Red Bull’s available performance than Perez partly because he’s comfortable with a car which is very sensitive to steering inputs.  Put them both in a car with more benign characteristics, and most likely Perez would be closer or just as quick.

Not that I think that should happen.  F1 cars should be vicious, ill-tempered beasts that are difficult to drive quickly.  And fundamentally, the job of a racing driver is to be able to get into whatever car you’re given and within a short space of time drive it quicker than anyone else.

TimmyO

Cols said:

RiftAmps said:

Cols said:

And Sinbaadi is right that there’s a limit, and no matter how good a driver you are you can’t make it go faster than its capabilities.

Actually, that's incorrect. It is entirely possible to produce a lap time faster than the car's theoretical best. It happens all the time and is what separates the great drivers from the good. The innate ability to control an unstable car is why some drivers such as George Russell could put a back-of-the-grid Williams in the top-6 consistently, whereas their teammates struggled to get off the back row.

The best drivers can out-drive their cars, without overdriving them.

We’re probably talking at cross purposes here.

No matter how good a driver you are driving talent alone will not give an extra 50 bhp, or generate more downforce, or magically reduce drag.  That’s what I (and I suspect sinbaadi) meant - at some point the capabilities of the car become limiting.  

The mark of a great driver is to be able to fully access the available performance of the car.  Verstappen can access more of the Red Bull’s available performance than Perez partly because he’s comfortable with a car which is very sensitive to steering inputs.  Put them both in a car with more benign characteristics, and most likely Perez would be closer or just as quick.

Not that I think that should happen.  F1 cars should be vicious, ill-tempered beasts that are difficult to drive quickly.  And fundamentally, the job of a racing driver is to be able to get into whatever car you’re given and within a short space of time drive it quicker than anyone else.

I think @RiftAmps  is just trying to acknowledge Lewis' 'perfect' 2018 lap in Singapore - we all know what a fan he is :-) 

DesVegas

Boromedic said:

DesVegas said:

I like bread

And jam





Jenson Button 

Boromedic

DesVegas said:

Boromedic said:

DesVegas said:

I like bread

And jam





Jenson Button 

Is nothing but a Sham...

stickyfiddle

Oh Perez bloody hell mate.... 

WYNIR0

Oh Danny what the hell?

stickyfiddle

And Ric top of Q1 in the end. 

Checo’s a goner, right??!

WYNIR0

stickyfiddle said:

And Ric top of Q1 in the end. 

Checo’s a goner, right??!

Hope not. I can't stand red bull (horner)