The F1 thread

fretmeister

That's amazing!  

sinbaadi

If RBR break with Perez it will be interesting to see to what extent they still go after the money in their number 2 driver.  Perhaps "2" is generous. 

There may be performance targets that Perez must meet, and failing to do so might essentially mean RBR can push him out but still keep some, or a lot if they've been clever, of the money he has brought with him.  He may contend that they've not given him the support required but I bet there are NDAs in there too, so he can moan all he wants behind closed doors.

That might open the door for someone less financially lucrative but infinitely more capable of becoming a winning driver.

skullfunkerry

sinbaadi said:

If RBR break with Perez it will be interesting to see to what extent they still go after the money in their number 2 driver.  Perhaps "2" is generous. 

There may be performance targets that Perez must meet, and failing to do so might essentially mean RBR can push him out but still keep some, or a lot if they've been clever, of the money he has brought with him.  He may contend that they've not given him the support required but I bet there are NDAs in there too, so he can moan all he wants behind closed doors.

That might open the door for someone less financially lucrative but infinitely more capable of becoming a winning driver.

I don't think they want a winning driver; they want a consistent podium finisher, but only the second or third steps.

I read earlier today that by falling over 100 points behind Max, Checo has fulfilled the criteria for Red Bull to bin him... don't know how much truth there is to that.

Cols

sinbaadi said:

If RBR break with Perez it will be interesting to see to what extent they still go after the money in their number 2 driver.  Perhaps "2" is generous. 

There may be performance targets that Perez must meet, and failing to do so might essentially mean RBR can push him out but still keep some, or a lot if they've been clever, of the money he has brought with him.  He may contend that they've not given him the support required but I bet there are NDAs in there too, so he can moan all he wants behind closed doors.

That might open the door for someone less financially lucrative but infinitely more capable of becoming a winning driver.

I’m pretty sure that Perez’s Telmex sponsorship is firmly tied to his presence in the team, no matter how clever Red Bull are.  The link has been there ever since Checo was a nipper.

I’m also sure that Red Bull won’t be short of cash even if they lose the Perez sponsorship.  The money he brings in handily pays Verstappen’s salary, but they’ve got a healthy income anyway.  And of all the top teams, they’re the only one who have a pay driver.  If Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren and Aston Martin can make do without one then I’m sure it isn’t beyond the means of Red Bull.  In fact, McLaren even shelled out $20 million to ditch Ricciardo in favour of a driver they hoped would bring improved results.

Lawson has his filming day in the Red Bull today.  Let’s see if he sticks it in the wall.

sinbaadi

Cols said:

sinbaadi said:

If RBR break with Perez it will be interesting to see to what extent they still go after the money in their number 2 driver.  Perhaps "2" is generous. 

There may be performance targets that Perez must meet, and failing to do so might essentially mean RBR can push him out but still keep some, or a lot if they've been clever, of the money he has brought with him.  He may contend that they've not given him the support required but I bet there are NDAs in there too, so he can moan all he wants behind closed doors.

That might open the door for someone less financially lucrative but infinitely more capable of becoming a winning driver.

I’m pretty sure that Perez’s Telmex sponsorship is firmly tied to his presence in the team, no matter how clever Red Bull are.  The link has been there ever since Checo was a nipper.

I’m also sure that Red Bull won’t be short of cash even if they lose the Perez sponsorship.  The money he brings in handily pays Verstappen’s salary, but they’ve got a healthy income anyway.  And of all the top teams, they’re the only one who have a pay driver.  If Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren and Aston Martin can make do without one then I’m sure it isn’t beyond the means of Red Bull.  In fact, McLaren even shelled out $20 million to ditch Ricciardo in favour of a driver they hoped would bring improved results.

Lawson has his filming day in the Red Bull today.  Let’s see if he sticks it in the wall.

I would be surprised if the contract didn't prevent Checo from simply leaving at any point without penalty and taking all the money somewhere else.  I would also be surprised therefore that they don't have a break clause with a nice settlement figure if he fails to meet some very clearly defined performance targets and has to be replaced.

They obviously do feel that they need the money enough to have given him a contract extension in the first place.  It was not because he's good at driving the car.  The fact that Redbull can afford more doesn't change the fact that they clearly feel it's worth having him in the team because of that additional money he brings.

markr76

sinbaadi said:

Cols said:

sinbaadi said:

If RBR break with Perez it will be interesting to see to what extent they still go after the money in their number 2 driver.  Perhaps "2" is generous. 

There may be performance targets that Perez must meet, and failing to do so might essentially mean RBR can push him out but still keep some, or a lot if they've been clever, of the money he has brought with him.  He may contend that they've not given him the support required but I bet there are NDAs in there too, so he can moan all he wants behind closed doors.

That might open the door for someone less financially lucrative but infinitely more capable of becoming a winning driver.

I’m pretty sure that Perez’s Telmex sponsorship is firmly tied to his presence in the team, no matter how clever Red Bull are.  The link has been there ever since Checo was a nipper.

I’m also sure that Red Bull won’t be short of cash even if they lose the Perez sponsorship.  The money he brings in handily pays Verstappen’s salary, but they’ve got a healthy income anyway.  And of all the top teams, they’re the only one who have a pay driver.  If Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren and Aston Martin can make do without one then I’m sure it isn’t beyond the means of Red Bull.  In fact, McLaren even shelled out $20 million to ditch Ricciardo in favour of a driver they hoped would bring improved results.

Lawson has his filming day in the Red Bull today.  Let’s see if he sticks it in the wall.

I would be surprised if the contract didn't prevent Checo from simply leaving at any point without penalty and taking all the money somewhere else.  I would also be surprised therefore that they don't have a break clause with a nice settlement figure if he fails to meet some very clearly defined performance targets and has to be replaced.

They obviously do feel that they need the money enough to have given him a contract extension in the first place.  It was not because he's good at driving the car.  The fact that Redbull can afford more doesn't change the fact that they clearly feel it's worth having him in the team because of that additional money he brings.

I’m not sure they need the money. The Oracle sponsorship they have is pretty sizeable. . Plus they do sell a lot of their fizzy drink. 

I do wonder if they’ve kept him round to appease Max, plus I think Horner likes Perez from what I’ve heard. But as much as he likes him. It’s starting to cost them in the constructors. 

sinbaadi

Yeah good point, who needs sponsor money when you're Redbull Racing? 

Oh wait, I mean Oracle Redbull Racing. 

Still, I'm sure they give at least most of the space on their cars and drivers to promoting charities and other philanthropic good causes.  You know, like Barcelona FC when they had UNICEF on their shirts?  Let's just have a quick look at their listed partners on the Redbullracing website.....hmmmm.

Not money motivated... Sure!

stickyfiddle

I do think they’re going to be more concerned about the bottom line than the pure sport of it since Mateschitz left us. 

Their revenue must be miles above the cost cap but if you’re still winning then as a generic shareholder you’d generally prefer the driver that comes with 50m a year than the one you have to pay for. 

But if they’re genuinely in fear for the constructors fight (and on current form Mc & Merc could even push them to 3rd by the of the year), that could cost them as much in prize money as Checo brings with him.

Boromedic

Of course they kept him around to appease Max, especially with all the upheaval of Horner and Newey, and Merc sniffing around. It's all about the boy wonder, because he knew he was going to have to start fighting the other teams soon enough, he doesn't want a team mate who can threaten to take wins as well.

The sponsorship is just a nice bonus that they'll happily take (I mean who wouldn't!), but there's a big difference between need and want. It's all about dear little Maximilian who wouldn't look quite as great if he actually had a half decent team mate (and he's only doing exactly what all the other greats would've done given half a chance). That being said, he's outperforming that car slightly at the moment, I think the pundits are right when they say it's no longer the outright quickest.

sinbaadi

Agree there's a difference between needing and wanting.  

If Max is good enough to "outperform" the car (not that I subscribe to that) then it shouldn't matter who they partner him with.  I really doubt that Max has made such demands other than: being number one, never having to be disadvantaged by team orders, and a stupid salary.  He doesn't care who is in the other car.  I don't even think he particularly cares that there is another car.  He is not a team player.

Cols

What Max has, and what both Vettel and Schumacher had before him, is a team which is completely focused on him.  

To get there was not straightforward, even though it was clear that Red Bull management  had decided he was the star of the future and would get what he liked.  It required ousting Ricciardo from the team, dispatching Gasly and Albon, and finally destroying any thoughts Perez might have had about being a regular challenger.

In order to maintain that position there are a few potential teammates he understandably wants to avoid:

1.  A seasoned race winner (or worse, a World Champion) with clear expectations that they’re nobody’s wingman (Alonso, Hamilton, Sainz)

2.  A young, hungry driver keen to make his mark.  Past examples of this were Senna to McLaren in 1988, Hamilton to McLaren in 2007, Ricciardo to Red Bull in 2014 and Russell to Mercedes in 2022.  In those cases the established driver was clearly King Shit, but found the new guy rather more trouble than he was worth.

That said, the rumours are that Lawson’s times yesterday were respectable but didn’t exactly knock the socks off the team.  So Max might not mind him being on the other side of the garage.

Emiel

About ousting Ricciardo... It is known that Ricciardo was keen to stay with the team in 2019 but demanded the same salary as Verstappen. The team told him 'no' and Ricciardo left for the money and went to Renault. 

I honestly think Max doesn't care who his teammate is, so far it is Red Bull that has found commercial interests (selling cans in Central/South America) more important than Perez's actual performance on track. I'd argue Red Bull will only seriously consider replacing him once Verstappen's championship gets into trouble. So far it doesn't look that way (comfortably leading with 84 points).

dazzajl

https://www.facebook.com/reel/25842072982074722?fs=e&s=TIeQ9V

Does that link work?

Boromedic

Emiel said:

About ousting Ricciardo... It is known that Ricciardo was keen to stay with the team in 2019 but demanded the same salary as Verstappen. The team told him 'no' and Ricciardo left for the money and went to Renault. 

I honestly think Max doesn't care who his teammate is, so far it is Red Bull that has found commercial interests (selling cans in Central/South America) more important than Perez's actual performance on track. I'd argue Red Bull will only seriously consider replacing him once Verstappen's championship gets into trouble. So far it doesn't look that way (comfortably leading with 84 points).

I think in one sense you're right, all of the top racers (and some of the not so so top, Villeneuve anyone (Jacques)) in one sense don't care about who they race against because they are so single minded they think they can beat anyone.

Believing that Max isn't bothered about who is in the other car though is very naive, of course he does, if he had someone in the other car challenging him it starts to occupy some of his bandwidth and makes his job more taxing than he wants it to be. Lewis's point a few years ago about Max having slower teammates is true, imagine Max now having to deal with a Lewis in his team like Fernando had. Lewis has had to race world champions and a fast newcomer in George. He's also never been allowed to forge the team around him like Cols pointed out with Seb, Michael and Max, I don't imagine they're sharing all Max's data with Perez yet all of Lewis's data is shared with George and that's often where George gets his extra speed from on Saturday.

I appreciate we have different opinions on why they re-signed Perez so soon, but to imagine Max's wishes, how unsettled he's been this season with Horner, his Dad and Merc flirting with him isn't part of that choice is simply ignoring the obvious.

Boromedic

dazzajl said:

https://www.facebook.com/reel/25842072982074722?fs=e&s=TIeQ9V

Does that link work?

Hahaha, that's funny

Boromedic

sinbaadi said:

Agree there's a difference between needing and wanting.  

If Max is good enough to "outperform" the car (not that I subscribe to that) then it shouldn't matter who they partner him with.  I really doubt that Max has made such demands other than: being number one, never having to be disadvantaged by team orders, and a stupid salary.  He doesn't care who is in the other car.  I don't even think he particularly cares that there is another car.  He is not a team player.

This is naive in the extreme, and you haven't read what I actually said. I don't believe it's all Max's wishes, however to think he doesn't prefer a slower team mate is ridiculous. It's mostly the team trying to keep him happy, not upsetting the status quo. If they suddenly signed Carlos, and kicked out Perez, Max and his Dad would be kicking open Horners door and causing issues.

They also know Max would be smashing both cars off the circuit to try to beat a better team mate as he is so win at all costs, Red Bull have avoided this since the Seb/Mark days.

Emiel

I understand it's so easy to see Max as the 'villain' here, but I think you're taking it all too seriously. Max is not interested in politics, the only thing he is interested in is winning. He's a family guy above all and he wants his family (Red Bull) to do well. That's not to say he doesn't care who his teammate is, but as he has mentioned many times he is not the one calling the shots.

About he and Red Bull sharing his data and setup with Checo, of course they are (as they have said many times). Gasly, Albon and Checo all have been open about Max' rather peculiar driving style and setup. He wants his car to be, in the words of Albon 'eye watering sharp'. Here's Albon explaining it nicely. There are few drivers able to cope with such a nervous car and once you start introducing a bit of understeer to make the car more relaxed, you'll lose laptime. Schumacher was the same in this. 

Cols

Emiel said:

About ousting Ricciardo... It is known that Ricciardo was keen to stay with the team in 2019 but demanded the same salary as Verstappen. The team told him 'no' and Ricciardo left for the money and went to Renault. 

I’m not sure that’s true.  I understand Ricciardo was offered a salary of £20 million, same as Max, to stay at Red Bull.  Horner thought he was making a bad joke when he told him he’d signed for Renault.  

What made Ricciardo jump was the power dynamic in the team.  Without being said out loud, it was obvious that Max was the golden boy.  This was made clear at Baku when both Red Bulls collided as a result of Verstappen dancing about in the braking zone (sound familiar?).  

In the aftermath, the team decided to blame both drivers.  Ricciardo didn’t enjoy being treated “like a naughty kid for something I don’t think I was at fault for”, as he later phrased it. Nor did he enjoy the naughty step treatment they were both given in having to turn up at the factory and apologise to each department.

I honestly think Max doesn't care who his teammate is, so far it is Red Bull that has found commercial interests (selling cans in Central/South America) more important than Perez's actual performance on track. I'd argue Red Bull will only seriously consider replacing him once Verstappen's championship gets into trouble. So far it doesn't look that way (comfortably leading with 84 points).

Perez has Mansellesque levels of support in Mexico, but Red Bull’s not going to shift many cans of fizzy drink on the back of Perez duelling with backmarkers and getting lapped twice.  

Boromedic

Emiel said:

I understand it's so easy to see Max as the 'villain' here, but I think you're taking it all too seriously. Max is not interested in politics, the only thing he is interested in is winning. He's a family guy above all and he wants his family (Red Bull) to do well. That's not to say he doesn't care who his teammate is, but as he has mentioned many times he is not the one calling the shots.

About he and Red Bull sharing his data and setup with Checo, of course they are (as they have said many times). Gasly, Albon and Checo all have been open about Max' rather peculiar driving style and setup. He wants his car to be, in the words of Albon 'eye watering sharp'. Here's Albon explaining it nicely. There are few drivers able to cope with such a nervous car and once you start introducing a bit of understeer to make the car more relaxed, you'll lose laptime. Schumacher was the same in this. 

I don't see Max as the villain, and I'm not taking it too seriously at all. He's just making hay whilst the sun shines, plus as I said above you're being naive, of course he's political, look at all the shit earlier in the year. As for the data sharing everything, I take anything RB and Max say with a whole bag of salt, if Horners lips are moving in interviews he's generally lying. Yes Max likes a pointy car, just like Schumacher, however when your second driver is at Rubens or Irvines level, it makes your life more difficult (they could still match Michael sometimes despite the team and car being setup for Michael and Michaels unusual setups). Hence why Perez is nice for him, Carlos and Max had a lot of friction together at Toro Rosso, because Carlos was closer in pace. 

sinbaadi

Boromedic said:

sinbaadi said:

Agree there's a difference between needing and wanting.  

If Max is good enough to "outperform" the car (not that I subscribe to that) then it shouldn't matter who they partner him with.  I really doubt that Max has made such demands other than: being number one, never having to be disadvantaged by team orders, and a stupid salary.  He doesn't care who is in the other car.  I don't even think he particularly cares that there is another car.  He is not a team player.

This is naive in the extreme, and you haven't read what I actually said. I don't believe it's all Max's wishes, however to think he doesn't prefer a slower team mate is ridiculous. It's mostly the team trying to keep him happy, not upsetting the status quo. If they suddenly signed Carlos, and kicked out Perez, Max and his Dad would be kicking open Horners door and causing issues.

They also know Max would be smashing both cars off the circuit to try to beat a better team mate as he is so win at all costs, Red Bull have avoided this since the Seb/Mark days.

I might say that suggesting that he is making the car go faster than it can go is "naive in the extreme".