Mr Bates Vs The Post Office

theatreanchor

Watched Hislop taking down Jake Berry on Peston. Imagine telling Hislop he doesn’t know what he’s talking about on this issue. It’s going to end up very badly! 

guitars4you

Sorry ref above 

I know Jones and Arbuthnot campaigned for justice and awareness of this whole saga - But compared with what the TV drama has recently showed us, their campaign was obviously weak and lacking support 

you can equally add that the press, tv, radio etc have now all jumped on the band wagon but in reality have offered little before hand

I hear Ian Hislop has received a letter from Alan Bates thanking him and his P Eye team for his/their continued support over the last 10/15 years or so

Fledermaus

It’s all just so awful…..  I too can’t work out how the PO just blindly bulldozed though these cases. To have such blind faith in a computer system! That anyone pointing out “er…. This is all a bit odd” to be shot down in flames…

Have Fujitsu got their fingers in any other computer systems?

I have heard they have a hand in the system used by the police, but I’ve not had the time to verify it……

chickenbonejohn

Fledermaus said:

It’s all just so awful…..  I too can’t work out how the PO just blindly bulldozed though these cases. To have such blind faith in a computer system! That anyone pointing out “er…. This is all a bit odd” to be shot down in flames…

Have Fujitsu got their fingers in any other computer systems?

I have heard they have a hand in the system used by the police, but I’ve not had the time to verify it……

Fujitsu have major MOD contracts...I'm sure it's nothing to concern ourselves about.

Haych

Watched the ITV series over the weekend, utterly astonishing that the PO could be so bloody minded.

The blurb at the end stated that something like 3,500 SPMs were investigated for theft, fraud or false accounting after Horizon went live.  Quite how nobody at the PO was willing to even think this is a bit weird is baffling!

I also read in the news that Tony Blair was warned the system was possibly unreliable before it was even rolled out but it was considered the only sensible choice to continue with Horizon!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

HAL9000

Ooh, interesting...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68079300

guitars4you

HAL9000 said:

Ooh, interesting...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68079300

Saw that this morning as well - And not the first time Jo Swinson's name has come into play, during her spell as PO Minister 

crosstownvamp

guitars4you said:

HAL9000 said:

Ooh, interesting...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68079300

Saw that this morning as well - And not the first time Jo Swinson's name has come into play, during her spell as PO Minister 

Funny that the coalition run by the Tories, kept appointing LibDems into this role, as well as the  parent role of secretary of state for Business, Enterprise and Industry. You might think they knew there was a problem so better to load it onto LibDems, the younger and less experienced the better.

The big point here is not Swinson, it's that Vennells was in it up to her neck. Proof of perverting the course of justice IMO.

Offset

crosstownvamp said:

The big point here is not Swinson, it's that Vennells was in it up to her neck. Proof of perverting the course of justice IMO.

Yep.  Shame that Vennells' strong Christian beliefs didn't extend to telling the truth and sparing many honest people the horror of being branded dishonest and then jailed.

Frankly, it's sickening.

bertie

Offset said:

crosstownvamp said:

The big point here is not Swinson, it's that Vennells was in it up to her neck. Proof of perverting the course of justice IMO.

Yep.  Shame that Vennells' strong Christian beliefs didn't extend to telling the truth and sparing many honest people the horror of being branded dishonest and then jailed.

Frankly, it's organised religion for you

FTFY

GuyBoden

I've followed the Horizon software scandal since I read an article in Computer weekly about 15 years ago.

"About 40,000 Horizon terminals were installed in all Post Offices across the UK. The user interface was a touchscreen and keyboard linked to a PC under the counter which ran on the Windows NT operating system. Branch PCs were connected via ISDN to a back-end mainframe."

As a Software Engineer, I was interested in how the Horizon software was designed in the late 1990's.

This is what I found interesting:

1.) The Horizon software project was originally developed predominantly for a Child Benefit payments system. Much of the Post Office functionality was a later bolt on to this original software and the Child Benefit payments software code removed.

2.) The software was developed using Rapid Application Development (RAD) method, originally no business requirements or low level detailed specifications seem to have been created, the detailed specifications were created later by reverse engineering, i.e looking at how the software functioned.

3.) Microsoft Visual Basic 6 was used as a development language.

4.) Windows operating systems on computers were used in each Sub Post Office site. (Approx 20,000 sites?)

As a Software Software Engineer remembering back to the late 1990's, I was surprised that Window's operating systems and Microsoft Visual Basic was used in a critical environment such as the Post Office accounting transactions. 

Window's operating systems in the 1990's were not known for their robustness, having performance faults including the famous "Blue screen of Death" and the continuous "Egg timer" display.

Microsoft Visual Basic 6 development language was an easy and fast way to create "Drag and Drop" Graphical User Interfaces, but the development language was not known for its robustness.

Microsoft Visual Basic 6 is listed in the Guinness Book of Records as "Most dreaded programming language".

"Developer Survey, the most dreaded programming language is Visual Basic 6.0. Only 10.1% of respondents who were working with the language said that they wanted to use it again in the future."

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/538727-most-dreaded-programming-language

Computer Weekly:

https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses-knew-about-Post-Office-Horizon-IT-flaws-says-insider

The Post Office Horizon Public Enquiry is here:

https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/

GuyBoden

I'm waiting for the Public Enquiry to interview Gareth Jenkins, the Horizon software chief architect from Fujitsu. Who was the used as Post Office's expert witness at court.

But, Gareth Jenkins is yet to attend the Public Enquiry, using "the principle of privilege against self-incrimination":

"the principle of privilege against self-incrimination. Before we go any further, I should tell you that a witness at a public inquiry has a right to decline to answer questions if there is a risk that the answer to the question would incriminate the witness. In short, that is the principle of privilege against self-incrimination."

 

BillDL

Yes, and they then have to weigh up whether promising immunity from prosecution, for the evidence that may or may not incriminate bigger or more fish, is worth it.  In terms of "worth", all the people that were falsely accused, imprisoned, lost everything, wouldn't be very happy if that big fish was let off the hook to cast the net around others and evade proper blame.

Danny1969

GuyBoden said:

I've followed the Horizon software scandal since I read an article in Computer weekly about 15 years ago.

"About 40,000 Horizon terminals were installed in all Post Offices across the UK. The user interface was a touchscreen and keyboard linked to a PC under the counter which ran on the Windows NT operating system. Branch PCs were connected via ISDN to a back-end mainframe."

As a Software Engineer, I was interested in how the Horizon software was designed in the late 1990's.

This is what I found interesting:

1.) The Horizon software project was originally developed predominantly for a Child Benefit payments system. Much of the Post Office functionality was a later bolt on to this original software and the Child Benefit payments software code removed.

2.) The software was developed using Rapid Application Development (RAD) method, originally no business requirements or low level detailed specifications seem to have been created, the detailed specifications were created later by reverse engineering, i.e looking at how the software functioned.

3.) Microsoft Visual Basic 6 was used as a development language.

4.) Windows operating systems on computers were used in each Sub Post Office site. (Approx 20,000 sites?)

As a Software Software Engineer remembering back to the late 1990's, I was surprised that Window's operating systems and Microsoft Visual Basic was used in a critical environment such as the Post Office accounting transactions. 

Window's operating systems in the 1990's were not known for their robustness, having performance faults including the famous "Blue screen of Death" and the continuous "Egg timer" display.

Microsoft Visual Basic 6 development language was an easy and fast way to create "Drag and Drop" Graphical User Interfaces, but the development language was not known for its robustness.

Microsoft Visual Basic 6 is listed in the Guinness Book of Records as "Most dreaded programming language".

"Developer Survey, the most dreaded programming language is Visual Basic 6.0. Only 10.1% of respondents who were working with the language said that they wanted to use it again in the future."

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/538727-most-dreaded-programming-language

Computer Weekly:

https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses-knew-about-Post-Office-Horizon-IT-flaws-says-insider

The Post Office Horizon Public Enquiry is here:

https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/

That's interesting and quite disturbing. I remember how flakey NT was back then and VB6 just seemed to constantly crash on me even doing the simplest little things. 
I used to sell to the maintenance companies who supplied to Fujitsu UK, and a lot of banks, POS terminals, cash machine PC's etc. That was the good days of making a fortune out of hardware. 

guitars4you

Not sure if this has been hi-lighted over the previous pages or not - Well worth a read - About the BBC Panorama show in 2015 that was delayed/pulled, with conflicting/cover up roles adopted by Alice Perkins, who had a horse in both races 

https://bylinetimes.com/2024/01/29/the-bbc-vs-the-post-office-the-undeclared-conflict-of-interest-as-panorama-investigated-the-horizon-scandal/

m_c

Former Post Office chair says he was told to stall Horizon compensation payouts | Post Office Horizon scandal | The Guardian

I'm guessing no one will be surprised by this revelation?

Nitefly

^^ Government says "No" lol...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68330465

Reverend

Nitefly said:

^^ Government says "No" lol...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68330465

And if there is one thing we have learned, it is that the current administration are totally trustworthy.

GuyBoden

"Without Prejudice"

Having read and watched a huge amount of the Public Enquiry witness statements and interviews.

The general theme for Post Office and Fujitsu witnesses at present:

Post Office seems to have believed the Horizon software had no accounting calculation faults when they made the prosecutions.

Fujitsu seems to have believed the Horizon software had no accounting calculation faults, only known faults, when the prosecutions were made.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I find this interesting due to being a software at the time, because my knowledge was that Windows operating systems and Visual Basic programs were seen as not being robust enough for use in business critical systems at the time, 1990's.

Also, I would like to hear a witness statement by an Escher Riposte representative, their software was apparently apart of the Horizon system.

The Public Enquiry continues on 9 April - 31 July 2024.

https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/public-hearings-timeline

guitars4you

A damming report this morning going back to 'Dave's days in charge -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68146054