Knopflers Auction Guitar list 31 jan

joeW

@Voxman what a great photo to have.  Don’t suppose you happened to see the S-400’s there are 3 of them and they look the shizz 

Voxman

joeW said:

@Voxman what a great photo to have.  Don’t suppose you happened to see the S-400’s there are 3 of them and they look the shizz 

Certainly did! 

Haych

On the spur of the moment I decided to catch the National Express and have a day out in London, the primary motive being visiting Christie’s to view the guitar collection. 

It was a great day out and well worth the visit. Some stunning guitars on display and the Dolby Atmos room was a whole new listening experience!

Not that I think I stand a shot at being able to afford any of the lots, I have registered to bid and will be keeping a close eye on the auction. 

One guitar in particular jumped out at me as being a bit special. It’s not one of his main guitars but has been used live and on a recording. 

I think I might have a cheeky pop at that one if the price doesn’t get silly. That’s unlikely but y’never know. 

Just got home after being up at 6am to catch the coach - absolutely knackered now, but still well worth it. 

BobHillman

Does anybody know whether the auction can be watched online?

Voxman

BobHillman said:

Does anybody know whether the auction can be watched online?

If you've registered to bid I believe so or at least you can see the bidding and bid. 

Haych

Is VAT applicable to the hammer price, does anyone know? Or is VAT only applied to the buyer’s premium?  I think it’s the latter but it’s not exactly made very clear. 

Also, has anyone noticed that lot 32 is no longer listed?  Website is down for maintenance at the moment but as of about 2am this morning (not a lot of sleeping happening at the moment) lot 32 wasn't there - I downloaded the brochure last week and lot 32 was the '93 flame redwood Pensa. 

I wonder if that's been sold ahead of the auction then?  Is that even possible?

robgilmo

And there we have it, while everyone was chasing first pressings of Dire Straights albums on the second hand market sales of new reissues dropped and poor Mark felt the pinch, to the point where he has to sell his guitars, even his Hofner , his first guitar bought for him by his dad, dont do it Mark!
At least he is keeping his National though.

Litterick

Haych said:

Is VAT applicable to the hammer price, does anyone know? Or is VAT only applied to the buyer’s premium?  I think it’s the latter but it’s not exactly made very clear. 

Also, has anyone noticed that lot 32 is no longer listed?  Website is down for maintenance at the moment but as of about 2am this morning (not a lot of sleeping happening at the moment) lot 32 wasn't there - I downloaded the brochure last week and lot 32 was the '93 flame redwood Pensa. 

I wonder if that's been sold ahead of the auction then?  Is that even possible?

Buyers premium in most cases. But there are exceptions, which are marked by symbols in the catalogue. These are explained in the conditions of sale. Everything else is explained on the website: How to buy at Christie's.

Lot 32 could have been withdrawn for a number of reasons, including an ownership dispute or doubts about authenticity. A private sale is unlikely but possible.

Strat54

robgilmo said:

And there we have it, while everyone was chasing first pressings of Dire Straights albums on the second hand market sales of new reissues dropped and poor Mark felt the pinch, to the point where he has to sell his guitars, even his Hofner , his first guitar bought for him by his dad, dont do it Mark!
At least he is keeping his National though.

I guess this is humour. There is no pinch for him of this I can assure you. 

Haych

Litterick said:

Haych said:

Is VAT applicable to the hammer price, does anyone know? Or is VAT only applied to the buyer’s premium?  I think it’s the latter but it’s not exactly made very clear. 

Also, has anyone noticed that lot 32 is no longer listed?  Website is down for maintenance at the moment but as of about 2am this morning (not a lot of sleeping happening at the moment) lot 32 wasn't there - I downloaded the brochure last week and lot 32 was the '93 flame redwood Pensa. 

I wonder if that's been sold ahead of the auction then?  Is that even possible?

Buyers premium in most cases. But there are exceptions, which are marked by symbols in the catalogue. These are explained in the conditions of sale. Everything else is explained on the website: How to buy at Christie's.

Lot 32 could have been withdrawn for a number of reasons, including an ownership dispute or doubts about authenticity. A private sale is unlikely but possible.

Thanks @Litterick.  Just to be sure I phoned Christie's and the young lady informed me that VAT is payable on the hammer price + buyer's premium, but the conditions of sale state that if there is no symbol (presumably on the lot description) that VAT is only payable on the buyer's premium.

So, clear as Severn mud!

I'm inclined to trust the conditions of sale as that's written and what can't speak can't lie, plus since VAT is sometimes applicable to the hammer price then the girl on the phone wasn't necessarily telling me an untruth, not that I believe she deliberately would.

Still, it's going to be awkward should I miss something in the small print and find out after the fact that VAT is payable on the hammer price as well!

I'm overthinking as usual, and getting way ahead of myself.  I imagine the guitar in question that I would choose to bid on will quickly become unaffordable once the lot gets under way.  But auctions are funny things, it's not a particularly famous guitar so maybe it won't attract that much attention and it'll go for a song (pun intended).

Strat54

Yep overthinking....no bargains to be had sorry. 

joeW

Regarding VAT - I have also asked to get clarification on whether payment of VAT will be due.   Their email reply suggest that is the case.   I told them which lots (S400’s) and that I was a uk resident and this was the reply:

If you are successful at auction, you will receive a copy of your purchase invoice by email which will include the Hammer Price, the Buyer Premium and UK VAT. I would recommend that you have a look at section D of the Conditions of Sale which will hopefully help with any questions that you might have regarding costs. I have attached the Conditions of Sale to this email for you.

So if you bid say 10k hammer px you pay 2.6k premium and then VAT on top to get a massive 15,120 
so just over 50% of the hammer price.  

Might just get some new strings instead 

Haych

@joeW I also emailed, this is the response I received in reply.  Fair play, they responded quite promptly:

Apologies for the conflicting information received around this. The conditions of sale document is correct. The lots in this sale are sold under the auctioneer’s VAT margin scheme – VAT is therefore only payable on the value of the buyer’s premium.

Hope that clears up any confusion you may have.

bacchanalian

Voxman

Re premium and VAT I did explain this in my earlier post:

"You have to pay 26% Christie's premium plus 20% VAT on the premium, which means an extra 31.2% on top of the hammer price.  And if you win the auction you have to pay for it to be delivered."

(You can collect it yourself of course) 

Litterick

Voxman said:

Re premium and VAT I did explain this in my earlier post:

"You have to pay 26% Christie's premium plus 20% VAT on the premium, which means an extra 31.2% on top of the hammer price.  And if you win the auction you have to pay for it to be delivered."

(You can collect it yourself of course) 

	That is the VAT Margin Scheme in accordance with Section 50A of the VAT Act 1994 & SI VAT (Special Provisions) Order 1995. Christie's could also invoice under standard VAT rules: "VAT will be charged at 20% on both the hammer price and buyer’s premium and shown separately on our invoice." The discussion was about the confusion at Christie's as to which rule would be applied.

Litterick

Haych said:

I'm overthinking as usual, and getting way ahead of myself.  I imagine the guitar in question that I would choose to bid on will quickly become unaffordable once the lot gets under way.  But auctions are funny things, it's not a particularly famous guitar so maybe it won't attract that much attention and it'll go for a song (pun intended).

They are funny things. Some lots in the Clapton auction went for reasonable amounts. Among all the famous guitars, he had two Fender Princeton Reverb II amps, that were expensive for an amp of that kind, but cheap for a musical thing owned by Eric. So doing the sums before making a bid is prudent: you are obliged to pay for a successful bid.

Haych

Litterick said:

So doing the sums before making a bid is prudent: you are obliged to pay for a successful bid.

I have a strict limit. I’m expecting the particular guitar in which I’m interested to quickly blow that limit, mind.

I will remain dispassionate about it all, it would be easy to get caught up in the moment and end up with a bill I can’t pay for a guitar that isn’t worth it. And in the event I should win I’ve already come to peace with the fact that it’ll be a financial write off. I’m not kidding myself that I might be acquiring an appreciating asset. 

I’ve already done the sums so I know what bid amount will take me to my limit once fees and vat are applied. 

It’ll be an interesting day regardless of whether I win anything or even bid. I’m looking forward to watching it unfold. 

richardhomer

A friend of a friend just ‘had’ to buy something at a very famous guitarist’s auction a few years ago and spent over £100,000 (taking into account fees and tax) on a guitar the player in question has never even been photographed with. That amount was small change to him in reality - but I often wonder if he tried to sell it, without the ‘hype’ of the massively publicised event he bought it at, how much it would sell for? 

Looking through the Knopfler catalogue, outside of the BIA Les Paul, the Mandela Pensa Suhr and the two Schecter Teles, there aren’t really any particularly identifiable guitars. 

Haych

richardhomer said:

Looking through the Knopfler catalogue, outside of the BIA Les Paul, the Mandela Pensa Suhr and the two Schecter Teles, there aren’t really any particularly identifiable guitars. 

Wiz’d. 

There’s still some nice stuff but the attraction is still only “previously owned by Mark Knopfler”. 

I was having this conversation with my dad on Monday. A lot of the stuff in the sale probably hasn’t even been played in anger by Mark. Some of the lots are instruments gifted to him by fans, and manufacturers hoping for an affiliation. But as you say, the truly recognisable guitars are quite few.