Lab grown meat approved for use in the UK

GoFish

FastEddie said:

....

I'll stand by my feelings of distrust and distaste toward the push toward grey sludge, owning nothing, driving nowhere, and being happy.

....

I, too, am against being happy. Is there a weekly meet up for that?

Rocker

Meat remains a major element in our diet. I was born a farmer’s son and I understand the feelings farmers have for their animals. I have yet to meet a farmer who is happy to see livestock loaded into a lorry to be transported to a meat factory. The cheque in the post keeps the farmer and his family alive and clothed. 

The tragedy is that so much good quality meat and poultry ends up being sold to the masses as a Shite Food (SF).  SF is burgers, meat balls, kebabs, chicken nuggets etc. Such SF is heavily doused in sauces mainly I suspect to disguise the fact that there is no actual taste or flavour in the products at all. Many people refuse to eat cucumber sandwiches but will eat burgers which contain pickled cucumbers (gherkins).  Ignorance is bliss. 

Most people live in an urban environment and have little or no idea of country life. As such they have no idea the care given to animals on the farm, from birth to slaughter. It is more comfortable to think meat can be bought, in cellophane wrapping, from a supermarket shelf. 

There might be a market for artificially created meats in the SF sector. One thing for certain is that the large corporations who are funding this research are not thinking about the health of their consumers or the welfare of the animals on the farm. 

darthed1981

GoFish said:

FastEddie said:

....

I'll stand by my feelings of distrust and distaste toward the push toward grey sludge, owning nothing, driving nowhere, and being happy.

....

I, too, am against being happy. Is there a weekly meet up for that?

TFB is here 24-7... I suggest P&E

ICBM

jonnyburgo said:

Sadly we are living in a country where most people are overweight/obese. Even sadder is that it's all self inflicted. Whether lab grown meat will be used to make prime cuts or just shit sausage fillers remains to be seen. The public loves to eat shit, so if that's what they want that's what they'll get.

In theory it's possible to use this sort of technology to create food which tastes the same as the processed crap a lot of people seem to like, but contains less of the constituents that make them fat. Whether there's any incentive for the makers to do so is another question... but I think it would be a good thing if they did.

I remain an optimist about this sort of thing - we have to be, since without it there just aren't enough resources on the planet to go around. Population growth itself is no longer the problem, since birth rates are falling and the population will peak somewhere near the end of this century at a level which we could produce enough food to support - the problem is that the 90% of the population who don't currently enjoy the Western lifestyle aspire to it, and if they succeed - and we have no right to stop them - then the amount of other resources and land needed isn't sustainable. So we need better, more efficient means of food production, energy supply, water management etc... and that's even if climate change doesn't move the goalposts far enough that we get caught in a trap of our own making. But insisting that all "artificial" methods of food production are inherently bad is going to make the problem worse - the same as if we decided to just go back to burning things for energy.

Look forward, not backward.

Hoof

Petepassion said:

Hoof said:

If lab grown meat becomes the norm, livestock is eliminated and the cow, pig, sheep, chicken etc become effectively extinct, how will we get products such as leather, eggs, wool, natural fertilizers? The production of meat makes these economically viable.

Does the use of these animals need to be the current level to maintain the current production of the goods you list?

I would expect that it would. The fact that they are all by products of the meat industry means that without the income from the main product then these goods would probably become prohibitably expensive. 

Rocker

darthed1981 said:

Kittyfrisk said:

Rocker said:

We are carnivores so eating meat is how we evolved to what we are.  I think it might take a thousand years evolution for us to become 100% vegetarians.  

I think you'll find we are omnivores.

I just read quite a lot of this thread and rocker's nonsense statement is nothing on some of the preceding stuff.

@darthed1981, ;;On page 7 of this thread, you commented on my fairly straightforward input to this discussion. I appreciate and value all opinions expressed about my inputs but you did not backup your ‘rockers nonsense’ statement by explaining how you arrived at that conclusion. 

On page 10,  my rationale is explained as succinctly as I could. You are still entitled to disagree if it clashes with your thinking but, if you disagree, do please clarify why you disagree. No offense taken or implied. 

darthed1981

Rocker said:

darthed1981 said:

Kittyfrisk said:

Rocker said:

We are carnivores so eating meat is how we evolved to what we are.  I think it might take a thousand years evolution for us to become 100% vegetarians.  

I think you'll find we are omnivores.

I just read quite a lot of this thread and rocker's nonsense statement is nothing on some of the preceding stuff.

@darthed1981, ;;On page 7 of this thread, you commented on my fairly straightforward input to this discussion. I appreciate and value all opinions expressed about my inputs but you did not backup your ‘rockers nonsense’ statement by explaining how you arrived at that conclusion. 

On page 10,  my rationale is explained as succinctly as I could. You are still entitled to disagree if it clashes with your thinking but, if you disagree, do please clarify why you disagree. No offense taken or implied. 

I was pointing out that your simple factual error that we are carnivores when we are omnivores was nothing compared to the nonsense up thread from it.

Sometimes these threads get very daft very quick, long before either of us posted anything in this case.

Rocker

Thanks @darthed1981, all now understood. 

Petepassion

Hoof said:

Petepassion said:

Hoof said:

If lab grown meat becomes the norm, livestock is eliminated and the cow, pig, sheep, chicken etc become effectively extinct, how will we get products such as leather, eggs, wool, natural fertilizers? The production of meat makes these economically viable.

Does the use of these animals need to be the current level to maintain the current production of the goods you list?

I would expect that it would. The fact that they are all by products of the meat industry means that without the income from the main product then these goods would probably become prohibitably expensive. 

Such a shame we use money as a measure against ethics

Hoof

Petepassion said:

Hoof said:

Petepassion said:

Hoof said:

If lab grown meat becomes the norm, livestock is eliminated and the cow, pig, sheep, chicken etc become effectively extinct, how will we get products such as leather, eggs, wool, natural fertilizers? The production of meat makes these economically viable.

Does the use of these animals need to be the current level to maintain the current production of the goods you list?

I would expect that it would. The fact that they are all by products of the meat industry means that without the income from the main product then these goods would probably become prohibitably expensive. 

Such a shame we use money as a measure against ethics

Perhaps, but remember it's also a measure of the time and effort that has gone into. Any commercial venture has to at least sustainable for a person to bother doing it in the first place.

Hoof

Kittyfrisk said:

digitalscream said:

monquixote said:

Hoof said:

If lab grown meat becomes the norm, livestock is eliminated and the cow, pig, sheep, chicken etc become effectively extinct, how will we get products such as leather, eggs, wool, natural fertilizers? The production of meat makes these economically viable.

I think this is a non problem

Leather, maybe. Eggs are a massively important source of protein, and there's no viable substitute in a hell of a lot of foodstuffs.

Natural fertilisers are also an issue, because the fact that they're effectively a byproduct makes crop production viable for those farmers focused on not actively harming the environment they rely on.

I'm not saying there's no solution to the latter, but it would take a lot more work. Eggs...I don't think there is any other option there.

Natural fertilisers have been used in agriculture for millennia but that doesn't make them good, even if they are 'organic'.
As has been mentioned earlier here by @Benm39 ; run-off & pollution is a very real problem regardless of the source.
Regarding leather, there are developments in the same areas of research as cultured meat  https://www.just-style.com/news/3dbt-introduces-lab-grown-sustainable-leather-alternative/

Both natural and chemical fertilisers have similar effects when they get into waterways, but only natural fertilisers maintain the long term health of the soil. Long term use of only chemical fertilisers eventually turns the soil into dust without the replacement of organic material.

Kittyfrisk

Hoof said:

Kittyfrisk said:

digitalscream said:

monquixote said:

Hoof said:

If lab grown meat becomes the norm, livestock is eliminated and the cow, pig, sheep, chicken etc become effectively extinct, how will we get products such as leather, eggs, wool, natural fertilizers? The production of meat makes these economically viable.

I think this is a non problem

Leather, maybe. Eggs are a massively important source of protein, and there's no viable substitute in a hell of a lot of foodstuffs.

Natural fertilisers are also an issue, because the fact that they're effectively a byproduct makes crop production viable for those farmers focused on not actively harming the environment they rely on.

I'm not saying there's no solution to the latter, but it would take a lot more work. Eggs...I don't think there is any other option there.

Natural fertilisers have been used in agriculture for millennia but that doesn't make them good, even if they are 'organic'.
As has been mentioned earlier here by @Benm39  run-off & pollution is a very real problem regardless of the source.
Regarding leather, there are developments in the same areas of research as cultured meat  https://www.just-style.com/news/3dbt-introduces-lab-grown-sustainable-leather-alternative/

Both natural and chemical fertilisers have similar effects when they get into waterways, but only natural fertilisers maintain the long term health of the soil. Long term use of only chemical fertilisers eventually turns the soil into dust without the replacement of organic material.

Not entirely. It depends on the nature, composition & application of the 'fertiliser' that is being used.
For example, you can directly inject measured amounts of fertilisers like aqueous ammonia under the soil, providing nutrients without disturbing the existing soil structure at all. 
 Chicken droppings & pig slurry spread directly onto the land are 'natural' & high in nitrogen, but be just as problematic & as free of useful soil improving material as using artificial processed fertilisers.
Well rotted animal straw bedding or FYM (farm yard manure as it was known), used to be routinely used, scattered or ploughed into the ground & had lots of very useful physical soil improvers from the organic straw component (not organic as now applied to food), as well as nutrients that benefitted the soil conditioning & microbiome.
This practice is still used in many cases, but the pressure to produce higher yields from any given area of land has caused farmers to have to abandon a lot of the 'old ways' & wisdom, in favour of maximising turnaround.
The whole issue of farming, efficiency & best practice has been hotly debated since I attended Agricultural College in 1977 & it wasn't a new thing then, so same old, same old eh?   

Mattharrier

Sporky said:

fretmeister said:

It's why asbestos litigation (and others things) has a an effective cut off date: can't sue if it was old enough (sometime in the 1950s, Can't remember the exact date) as nobody on earth knew there was a problem with it.

The ancient Egyptians knew that asbestos workers often died younger with breathing problems. 

Do you have a source for that?

VimFuego

Mattharrier said:

Sporky said:

fretmeister said:

It's why asbestos litigation (and others things) has a an effective cut off date: can't sue if it was old enough (sometime in the 1950s, Can't remember the exact date) as nobody on earth knew there was a problem with it.

The ancient Egyptians knew that asbestos workers often died younger with breathing problems. 

Do you have a source for that?

IIRC it's been extensively documented in hieroglyphs in any number of pyramids. My ancient Egyptian is not as good as it should be, however I think the hieroglyph in question is a whip wielding Pharoah laughing at a bunch of slaves dying as they cough up their lungs.
Very descriptive language is ancient Egyptian. 

BillDL

VimFuego said:

Mattharrier said:

Sporky said:

fretmeister said:

It's why asbestos litigation (and others things) has a an effective cut off date: can't sue if it was old enough (sometime in the 1950s, Can't remember the exact date) as nobody on earth knew there was a problem with it.

The ancient Egyptians knew that asbestos workers often died younger with breathing problems. 

Do you have a source for that?

IIRC it's been extensively documented in hieroglyphs in any number of pyramids. My ancient Egyptian is not as good as it should be, however I think the hieroglyph in question is a whip wielding Pharoah laughing at a bunch of slaves dying as they cough up their lungs.
Very descriptive language is ancient Egyptian. 

Indeed.  This heiroglyph clearly shows the path of the fibres from the corrugated asbestos cement roof finding its way into somebody's respiratory tract via the nostrils.

Petepassion

Hoof said:

Petepassion said:

Hoof said:

Petepassion said:

Hoof said:

If lab grown meat becomes the norm, livestock is eliminated and the cow, pig, sheep, chicken etc become effectively extinct, how will we get products such as leather, eggs, wool, natural fertilizers? The production of meat makes these economically viable.

Does the use of these animals need to be the current level to maintain the current production of the goods you list?

I would expect that it would. The fact that they are all by products of the meat industry means that without the income from the main product then these goods would probably become prohibitably expensive. 

Such a shame we use money as a measure against ethics

Perhaps, but remember it's also a measure of the time and effort that has gone into. Any commercial venture has to at least sustainable for a person to bother doing it in the first place.

Let's hope we do not continue to justify this insane socio-economic model to the point it completely buries the human race whilst on its path of destruction.

Jetsam1

Petepassion said:

Hoof said:

Petepassion said:

Hoof said:

Petepassion said:

Hoof said:

If lab grown meat becomes the norm, livestock is eliminated and the cow, pig, sheep, chicken etc become effectively extinct, how will we get products such as leather, eggs, wool, natural fertilizers? The production of meat makes these economically viable.

Does the use of these animals need to be the current level to maintain the current production of the goods you list?

I would expect that it would. The fact that they are all by products of the meat industry means that without the income from the main product then these goods would probably become prohibitably expensive. 

Such a shame we use money as a measure against ethics

Perhaps, but remember it's also a measure of the time and effort that has gone into. Any commercial venture has to at least sustainable for a person to bother doing it in the first place.

Let's hope we do not continue to justify this insane socio-economic model to the point it completely buries the human race whilst on its path of destruction.

The species won't. We are partly caught by our own evolution and a seemingly pathologic desire over the last few thousand years to have the greediest psychopaths we can find have all the power.

Sorry, I am going through another phase of having lost all faith with humanity and am bored with the same old patterns again and again.

Adey

Petepassion said:

Hoof said:

Petepassion said:

Hoof said:

Petepassion said:

Hoof said:

If lab grown meat becomes the norm, livestock is eliminated and the cow, pig, sheep, chicken etc become effectively extinct, how will we get products such as leather, eggs, wool, natural fertilizers? The production of meat makes these economically viable.

Does the use of these animals need to be the current level to maintain the current production of the goods you list?

I would expect that it would. The fact that they are all by products of the meat industry means that without the income from the main product then these goods would probably become prohibitably expensive. 

Such a shame we use money as a measure against ethics

Perhaps, but remember it's also a measure of the time and effort that has gone into. Any commercial venture has to at least sustainable for a person to bother doing it in the first place.

Let's hope we do not continue to justify this insane socio-economic model to the point it completely buries the human race whilst on its path of destruction.

I think we will have that.

All the while humans are, effectively, lazy feckers they will always opt for the easiest solution, and as you say, money is effectively a measure of effort in some way.

If I ask you to do all my housework because I don't want to, you're unlikely to continually keep saying "OK".

Snap

WYNIR0 said:

Assuming that the requisite safety tests are completed I'd be perfectly happy to eat lab grown meat. Ethically and ecologically I see it as a very good thing indeed.

One question I have yet to get a clear answer to. Can Vegetarians and Vegans eat Lab grown meat?

eyup Nick. Long time etc etc.

I've been a vegetarian for over 30 years. If the lab grown meat has come from an animal cell line then strictly speaking its' still animal derived, so the answer would be no. 
However, the point of debate for some would be the cruelty aspect, or potentially lack of it in lab grown scenario.

For me, I don't think I would eat it. I'd have to think more about it and read up on it, but after so long not eating flesh, the idea of eating it again turns me over a bit. On the odd occasion where I've accidentally eaten meat, it has a very pungent taste, and made me feel spewy. 

Interesting debate though. The meat industry is one of, if not the biggest single contributors to greenhouse gases. We do need to address how obsessed with meat eating we have become imo, We eat way too much, not good for our bowels either.

DefaultM

Snap said:

WYNIR0 said:

Assuming that the requisite safety tests are completed I'd be perfectly happy to eat lab grown meat. Ethically and ecologically I see it as a very good thing indeed.

One question I have yet to get a clear answer to. Can Vegetarians and Vegans eat Lab grown meat?

For me, I don't think I would eat it. I'd have to think more about it and read up on it, but after so long not eating flesh, the idea of eating it again turns me over a bit. On the odd occasion where I've accidentally eaten meat, it has a very pungent taste, and made me feel spewy. 

I’ve been thinking about this as well and I don’t really know what the point would be.
I’ve eaten more than my fair share of real meat, I’ve decided I don’t want to anymore and I’ve moved on. I can’t really imagine there are people out there that have chosen not to eat it anymore but have been pining for a 100% realistic alternative? 

It seems more of a thing for people who want to continue eating meat but are thinking of the environment.