Rich Tone Music

RobG3294

p90fool said:

Whilst the twenty quid obviously matters at least on principle, I think the practice of reselling a dud until it ends up being bought by a beginner, by someone who's buying it as a gift or by anyone who doesn't know enough to challenge them is about as shitty as it gets. 

Cynical is an understatement. 

This is spot on, it's exactly what I thought had happened when they said it had been bought in store (as no one would walk out with that thing unless they were totally lacking knowledge of what to look for).

Cirrus

It doesn't have to be emotional, angry, or any more confrontational than the situation demands, does it?

Dear Rich Tone,

Regarding order number XXXXX which I returned to you on X date. I believe the instrument was sold to me without disclosing its condition, rendering it not fit for purpose. Therefore I would like you to refund me for the return postage of £XX.

I posted about my experience on a popular UK based guitar forum, and the person you sold the guitar to after I returned it happened to be a member who saw my post and has contradicted your account - he says that after I told you about the unplayably low frets, he enquired with you and was told the frets are in good condition. He also bought it through your website, sight unseen, and not in person as you told me.

On the face of it it looks like you've dishonestly sold the instrument to two unhappy customers without disclosing the condition of the instrument - even when directly asked.

Please reconsider your decision regarding my return postage costs.

Kind Regards,

xxxxxx

scrumhalf

^^

No. Never use all of your bullets in your first salvo. If they read that and tell you to bugger off where do you go?

Drip-feed the evidence, if necessary after a series of emails, each one adding to the evidence. It gives them the opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot in writing in response to an earlier email, thereby turning the evidence against them from oral to written.

Haych

Having skim read the post and most of the replies it does seem that Rich Tone are employing cynical selling tactics.

There shouldn't really be any get out using the "phone for a chat" disclaimer.

If a product is offered for sale, even used, then unless there is included in the description that there are flaws with the product and it is being sold "as is" because of those flaws, then there is a reasonable expectation that the product should be fit for its intended purpose.

If the frets really were that flat then the guitar is not fit for purpose and 1.) it should not be offered for sale without full disclosure - and they're a music shop so it's not like they aren't going to know*, and 2.) the buyer should not have to rely on phone conversations which cannot be corroborated after the fact as part of the description.

Rich Tone should be obligated to accept the return and arrange collection, but since the OP has already arranged return postage they should be refunding that too.

* Highly likely that the condition of the frets was used to negotiate a price with the previous owner when it found its way to Rich Tone in the first place.

RobG3294

Cirrus said:

It doesn't have to be emotional, angry, or any more confrontational than the situation demands, does it?

Dear Rich Tone,

Regarding order number XXXXX which I returned to you on X date. I believe the instrument was sold to me without disclosing its condition, rendering it not fit for purpose. Therefore I would like you to refund me for the return postage of £XX.

I posted about my experience on a popular UK based guitar forum, and the person you sold the guitar to after I returned it happened to be a member who saw my post and has contradicted your account - he says that after I told you about the unplayably low frets, he enquired with you and was told the frets are in good condition. He also bought it through your website, sight unseen, and not in person as you told me.

On the face of it it looks like you've dishonestly sold the instrument to two unhappy customers without disclosing the condition of the instrument - even when directly asked.

Please reconsider your decision regarding my return postage costs.

Kind Regards,

xxxxxx

scrumhalf said:

^^

No. Never use all of your bullets in your first salvo. If they read that and tell you to bugger off where do you go?

Drip-feed the evidence, if necessary after a series of emails, each one adding to the evidence. It gives them the opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot in writing in response to an earlier email, thereby turning the evidence against them from oral to written.

Exactly why I asked the question, thanks both for your input. 

beed84

.

RaptorCheeses

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ckpVr4qWXw7GBVdMYYSi3IrYA5ayE81g?usp=drive_link

Best pics I can take with my phone. They really don't show just how flat and low these things are. I think the only way to put a decent crown on them is if you scalloped the fretboard and I'm not dressing like a fat pirate every time I play this thing.

BobHillman

RaptorCheeses said:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ckpVr4qWXw7GBVdMYYSi3IrYA5ayE81g?usp=drive_link

Best pics I can take with my phone. They really don't show just how flat and low these things are. I think the only way to put a decent crown on them is if you scalloped the fretboard and I'm not dressing like a fat pirate every time I play this thing.

What does Marco Pironi have to do with it?

Rob1742

If I was them I’d be sending the £20 back as soon as possible and putting the guitar on an open fire within the hour.

Get rid of any negatives around your business as soon as you possibly can, if not sooner. 

If you have dropped a clanger rectify as soon as possible so the issue becomes old news.

Either that or defend yourself and leave it to the viewers to decide. 

RaptorCheeses

Sent an email to rich tone suggesting they have a look at this thread as it'll explain where we're at with this guitar. Hopefully Rob's done the same by now.

Ball's in rich tone's court.

RobG3294

RaptorCheeses said:

Sent an email to rich tone suggesting they have a look at this thread as it'll explain where we're at with this guitar. Hopefully Rob's done the same by now.

Ball's in rich tone's court.

Same here, will see what they come back with.

RobG3294

RobG3294 said:

RaptorCheeses said:

Sent an email to rich tone suggesting they have a look at this thread as it'll explain where we're at with this guitar. Hopefully Rob's done the same by now.

Ball's in rich tone's court.

Same here, will see what they come back with.

Update:

"Thanks for your email. I’m sorry if we have got this wrong, we aren’t trying to be misleading or dishonest and I will review our processes with all involved.

I have sent the return postage to you via PayPal this morning."

As predicted, it looks like incompetence via a typically political response, was the lesser of the evils optics wise. 

I hope @RaptorCheeses gets a similar conciliatory response from them. It really should not take a second customer to get stung and its only as RTM have been caught with their pants down, that they have had to actually believe, give credence to, or to act upon the repeated concerns of the first. 

Cynically, 99% of the time they'd probably have gotten away with it [insert scooby doo meme] and palmed me/us both off, tit for tat style with no monies refunded - if it wasn't for blind luck on this thread to corroborate the two buyers' experiences, it would just have been either one of the buyer's words, against their own side.

I'll let people make their own minds up on them. 

Esoterick

It's good you got this resolved, but it is a shame it has to get to this point.

I had an issue with one of the big guitar shops quite significantly messing up an order I made. It was treated as if their mistake was now my problem.

I made it clear I wasn't happy, but it wasn't until I left them a scathing review a couple of weeks later they seemed to actually care.

Lawriejones1

I’d give the shop the chance to put it right. This may have been someone who tried to play a game and cover up their mistake. Seems management knows about it and is dealing with it.

InactiveX

scrumhalf said:

^^

No. Never use all of your bullets in your first salvo. If they read that and tell you to bugger off where do you go?

Drip-feed the evidence, if necessary after a series of emails, each one adding to the evidence. It gives them the opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot in writing in response to an earlier email, thereby turning the evidence against them from oral to written.

I rather disagree with this (YMMV of course). Better to lay it on thick with the misgivings, in a couteous though assertive way. If they do tell you to, as you say, bugger off, then it'd be time to contact the regulators.

Really glad at the progress that has been made in getting the money back.

RobG3294

InactiveX said:

scrumhalf said:

^^

No. Never use all of your bullets in your first salvo. If they read that and tell you to bugger off where do you go?

Drip-feed the evidence, if necessary after a series of emails, each one adding to the evidence. It gives them the opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot in writing in response to an earlier email, thereby turning the evidence against them from oral to written.

I rather disagree with this (YMMV of course). Better to lay it on thick with the misgivings, in a couteous though assertive way. If they do tell you to, as you say, bugger off, then it'd be time to contact the regulators.

Really glad at the progress that has been made in getting the money back.

My email to Rich Tone this morning in case anyone is remotely interested:

Hi xxxxxx 

Thanks for your reply. Please ensure you read this reply thoroughly, meaning I have been honest with Rich tone in terms of sending this Guitar back as not fit for purpose. 

You claim the Guitar was 'deemed fine for resale' and 'sold in the store' the next day. I have since found out by blind luck and sheer chance that this was misleading and was sold online. I know exactly why I was told it sold in the store - to give it's in the flesh condition and 'road worthiness' some credence and to discredit my appraisal upon return. Had it been true, I still would have disagreed strongly and pursued the refunding of the monies for return transit anyway, due to the fact I had evidence of it's condition at the point of return (immediately before I boxed it up).

You can see this thread (which does not make favourable reading for yourselves as you now have not one, but two buyers of this instrument, both of whom have been sequentially misled - me to a lesser extent):

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/269542/rich-tone-music#latest

Not only that, it has emerged that after I told you the Guitar had a major issue with the fretwork on not one, but two separate emails, the second buyer himself (I direct messaged him on the forum after learning what I had in the main thread) had enquired about the frets on eBay whereby he was told "the Guitar is 14 years old, has minimal fretwear, and has been played with a light touch".

To provide the second buyer this statement, best case displays a sheer lack of understanding, but more probably was either incompetent or deliberately misleading and shows severe disregard and lack of respect for what I told you about the instrument prior to the return - you knew the reason for return (of which my appraisal came from a position of experience). Someone else now has a headache and potential incurred risk regarding a return, this is unfair.

Any luthier or Guitar Technician would provide an appraisal in line with your two unhappy and misled buyers. This instrument is not in sellable condition, other than if you disclose it needs significant remedials with respect to the frets.

I again ask politely for the refund the £16.20 that I am owed under the online distance selling regulations. I have no idea nor is it my business what the other individual whom is the current keeper of the instrument decides to do, but I sincerely hope he/she is not left out of pocket either.

Regards,

RaptorCheeses

Great news then, Rob! Although it's a pity folks have to go to this much hassle to get a business to listen to them. Hopefully rich tone are willing to learn from this and adjust their practices a tad - only time will tell. Won't hold my breath, but fair play if they do.

I decided to take a partial refund in the end as the rest of the guitar I can fettle with. It won't exactly buy that small island in the Philippines with the hollowed out volcano and monorail system that I'd been hoping for, but it does go a fair way to getting the frets pulled and some new shiny ones plonked in. Just a case of finding someone in Derbyshire who can do it.

Many thanks for starting this thread!

M1ck

RaptorCheeses said:

Just a case of finding someone in Derbyshire who can do it.

Jon Shuker close enough at Hope Valley? 

normula1

M1ck said:

RaptorCheeses said:

Just a case of finding someone in Derbyshire who can do it.

Jon Shuker close enough at Hope Valley? 

Jon did a brilliant job on my Tele

Boromedic

Personally, I'd send it to Feline, can highly recommend their services.