The Rugby Union Thread

VimFuego

Rocker said:

VimFuego said:

crunchman said:

Rocker said:

There are always heated discussions about who got left out of the Lions squad.  This time Johnny Gray, Johnny Sexton and Keith Earls must feel (more than slightly) agrieved at being omitted.

Why is it that England always seem to have the largest number of squad members.  In the recent 6N, England finished below mid table so it would seem obvious that Wales would get the nod number wise, Scotland,Ireland and England filling the rest of the places more or less evenly across the three Unions.  Not so.

England were in the World Cup Final 18 months ago. Those players haven't become bad players overnight.

There is always controversy about Lions squads.  Even as an Englishman, I wouldn't have picked Eliott Daly, Mako Vunipola, or Johnny Hill. On the other hand, I would have picked Kyle Sinckler, Joe Marler, and Johnny May.

I suppose my question for Rocker is how does he know more about rugby and team selection than the coaching staff of the lions, not one of whom is English. 

The answer to your question @VimFuego is that I know next to nothing about Lions team selection.  But I do watch the 6N games and can see when a player is really worth his place on the team.  And if his/their performance is repeated over and over (as the players I named in my post consistently do so), this makes them definitely in contention for a Lions callup.

But my main question has not been answered by anyone: Why is it that England always seem to have the largest number of squad members?

just out of curiousity, how many of us do you think Gats consulted before making his selection decisions? This may be a tricky concept for you to understand, but none of us here know the answer to your question. Should you not direct it to Warren Gatland?
That said, I agree with you, you demonstrably don't know anything about rugby. 

Neill

sev112 said:

Neill said:

tbm said:

....

It's not all about playing ability though is it.  Kyle Sinckler isn't there because there are issues with his temperament - at least as far as Gatland is concerned.  Similarly Joe Marler is known to have issues being away from home, and he made no secret of his lack of commitment being selected only for midweek games on the last campaign. 

What is this temperament issue that you speak of?  Examples please, I think you would be hard pressed to find any in the test arena.  In the middle of scrums he comes up with a face of calmness, the ref has a word about the scrum , and he gets back on with it. no chat, no arguments, no fights.  

I think it’s unfair, he does not deserve that sort of criticism.  If he is t good enough or Gats doesn’t want him so be it, but perceptions are not reasonable

I suspect the issue with Sinckler on the 2017 tour may well have cost him.  It might have been a "minor disorder" but he was still arrested and it was a sour footnote to the end of the tour.  

It is pure speculation on my part, but when you witness the general bewilderment regarding Sinckler's exclusion, surely it's natural to look for reasons other than his rugby playing ability/form?

koneguitarist

Rocker said:

VimFuego said:

crunchman said:

Rocker said:

There are always heated discussions about who got left out of the Lions squad.  This time Johnny Gray, Johnny Sexton and Keith Earls must feel (more than slightly) agrieved at being omitted.

Why is it that England always seem to have the largest number of squad members.  In the recent 6N, England finished below mid table so it would seem obvious that Wales would get the nod number wise, Scotland,Ireland and England filling the rest of the places more or less evenly across the three Unions.  Not so.

England were in the World Cup Final 18 months ago. Those players haven't become bad players overnight.

There is always controversy about Lions squads.  Even as an Englishman, I wouldn't have picked Eliott Daly, Mako Vunipola, or Johnny Hill. On the other hand, I would have picked Kyle Sinckler, Joe Marler, and Johnny May.

I suppose my question for Rocker is how does he know more about rugby and team selection than the coaching staff of the lions, not one of whom is English. 

The answer to your question @VimFuego is that I know next to nothing about Lions team selection.  But I do watch the 6N games and can see when a player is really worth his place on the team.  And if his/their performance is repeated over and over (as the players I named in my post consistently do so), this makes them definitely in contention for a Lions callup.

But my main question has not been answered by anyone: Why is it that England always seem to have the largest number of squad members?

I would say, England generally have the biggest squad to choose from as there is depth for every position. Wales and Ireland only 4 teams each to choose from and Scotland 2. England have 12 teams and are playing in a pretty tough league. 

There is English players not in national squad that as a Welshman I would love to have for Wales. So choice, also a coaches thoughts on not taking the team that beat England or Wales but a team to assembled to beat World champions.

Gassage

Regarding Sinck v Fagerson- Sink 13 scrum pens in the 6N's, Fagerson 3. THat's why.

Gassage

Loosehead is the only place where I think Gatland has messed up. The only absolutely elite scrummager is Rory Sutherland.

Wyn Jones and Mako are way off the mark for top test scrummaging.

tbm

Gassage said:

Loosehead is the only place where I think Gatland has messed up. The only absolutely elite scrummager is Rory Sutherland.

Wyn Jones and Mako are way off the mark for top test scrummaging.

Would'd you have in there? 

VimFuego

tbm said:

Gassage said:

Loosehead is the only place where I think Gatland has messed up. The only absolutely elite scrummager is Rory Sutherland.

Wyn Jones and Mako are way off the mark for top test scrummaging.

Would'd you have in there? 

no one really stood out during the 6N as having a great run of form. On current form in England, other than Marler, there isn't really any loosehead I'd take, assuming it's scrummaging you're looking at. 

sev112

Maybe more English players get picked because they are the friendliest  

VimFuego

sev112 said:

Maybe more English players get picked because they are the friendliest  

it is interesting to see how so many people are triggered by the nationality of the players selected. Surely the only criteria is does that player fit in with what the coach has in mind for them? The purpose of the exercise is to win a test series, not make some small minded tribalists feel better about themselves. 

sev112

Spot on.  

I thought Wyn Jones had a very good 6N at prop, which is why he’s on the plane.  Owens will hook, and I imagine that has something to do with him being there.

crunchman

sev112 said:

Spot on.  

I thought Wyn Jones had a very good 6N at prop, which is why he’s on the plane.  Owens will hook, and I imagine that has something to do with him being there.

I don't think there are too many arguments over the 3 hookers in the squad.  Pretty much every pundit I was unanimous on those 3 before the squad was announced.

sev112

True,  but Owens was the only that played any good in the 6n

scrumhalf

Sam Simmonds - what a player. Fifty Prem tries in 66 games. For a No 8.

Amazing.

tbm

scrumhalf said:

Sam Simmonds - what a player. Fifty Prem tries in 66 games. For a No 8.

Amazing.

Unreal. 

fretmeister

scrumhalf said:

Sam Simmonds - what a player. Fifty Prem tries in 66 games. For a No 8.

Amazing.

Only 1 off most tries for any position in a season.

EJ still won't pick him though. Because EJ has lost the plot. BV isn't even the 2nd best eligible 8 anymore.

kjdowd

Think he's got the season best with last night's hat trick. Amazing player. I've never seen him play until the flesh before but went to Brentford last night and how anyone can question his physicality is beyond me. And his speed off the blocks is amazing for an 8. If he stays fit he'll have an excellent Lions tour 

crunchman

Reminds me of the Neil Back situation years ago.  Not picked by England as he was perceived to be too small and then got picked for the Lions.  Hopefully SImmonds goes on to the same success.

scrumhalf

The trouble with Vunipola is that he isn't Vunipola any more, whereas Simmonds is most definitely Simmonds.

Gassage

European Champs Team of Season

ECPR TOW2

15. Hugo Keenan (Leinster): Despite missing out on British and Irish Lions selection Hugo Keenan put in several assured displays for Leinster, making an average yardage of over 60m per game. His assured presence in the air sees him take the place from the outstanding finalists, Brice Dullin (La Rochelle) and the brilliant Japanese rock star, Kotaro Matsushima.

14. Cheslin Kolbe (Toulouse) The Springbok with the spring in his step is a modern day rugby treasure and he’s lit up Europe all year. Elsewhere, Clermont’s Damian Penaud appears to be over his injury issues and played with great pace and fire, whilst Dylan Leyds took his opportunities well in a memorable season for La Rochelle.

13. Geoffrey Doumayrou (La Rochelle): Doumayrou may be a forgotten man of French international selection but the beefy centre was on the end of everything La Rochelle did well this season. Rory O’Loughlin was solid all campaign for Leinster, whilst Henry Slade also had some memorable moments running freely for Exeter despite their quarter- final defeat.

12. Kurtley Beale (Racing92): The quicksilver Wallaby made the most clean breaks of any player in this season’s tournament and his attacking skills see him take the 12 shirt, as we believe that’s his best position. Elsewhere, Pita Ahki shone for Toulouse as they became champions for the fifth time, whilst Leinster’s Robbie Henshaw once again impressed.

11. Tom O’Flaherty (Exeter Chiefs): In the top three players of clean breaks, defenders beaten and tries scored, the uncapped Exeter man is pushing hard for international honours and deserves a place on the wing. Raymond Rhule, the former Springbok completes a duet of South African wingers in our nominations, joined by Leinster’s James Lowe who was  a whirling Dervish out on the flanks in attack.

10: Matthieu Jalibert (Bordeaux Begles): To witness the development of this young artist this season has been nothing short of remarkable and he was almost wholly responsible for dragging Bordeaux into the semis and almost into the final itself. He is the most complete ten in Europe right now and he takes the spot from his French rival, Romain Ntamack, with the excellent Kiwi Ihaia West making up our triumvirate.

9: Antoine Dupont (Toulouse): There’s few better rugby players in the world right now than the brilliant Dupont and again, his try in the final separated two teams fighting to the death in a big game. Maxime Luca was brilliant all year for Bordeaux Begles, whilst Tawera Kerr-Barlow ignited a lot of La Rochelle’s best moments behind his juggernaught pack.

8: Jerome Kaino (Toulouse): The 38 year old Kiwi legend is still a force to be reckoned with and it was his calm assurance in the back row of the Champions that kept his side going in a myriad of tight situations. His former All Black team-mate Victor Vito matched him blow for blow all year and it’s hard to separate them and Jack Conan’s big display in the semi-final defeat for Leinster earned him a Lions place becoming our third pick.

7: Francois Cros (Toulouse): With the other two back-row places nailed down for France, Cros’ return to form might just see him return to the French openside. La Rochelle’s Kevin Gourdon, his opponent in the final, might not have the pace of old, but his canny displays see him get a shout out with Josh Van Der Flier of Leinster also excellent all season.

6: Gregory Alldritt (La Rochelle): You can play this guy in any position across the back row and he’ll give you a world class response. He was La Rochelle’s tireless workhorse during their time with 14 players and he sees off the powerful Exeter Chief, Dave Ewers, with the abrasive Rocky Elstad of Toulouse also making an impact all season.

5. Rory Arnold (Toulouse): Rory Arnold is the quiet professor of the set piece and a key leader for Toulouse. Add in some galloping charges and a powerful display in the scrummage and he sees off Chief’s Jonny Hill, whose displays earned him a Lions call up, despite a quarter final loss, and the excellent Devin Toner of Leinster.

4. Will Skelton (La Rochelle): Will Skelton is looking lean and mean and the big Samoan-Aussie was outstanding in gaining momentum all season for La Rochelle. Clermont’s Peceli Yato was outstanding all season for Clermont, whilst Donnancha Ryan was at the centre of all of Racing92’s adhesion in defeat.

3. Uini Atonio (La Rochelle): Atonio is looking powerful, marginally more mobile and he made use of all of his bulk to destroy every scrummage he faced this year. British and Irish Lion Tadgh Furlong may want to forget Leinster’s defeat by La Rochelle but elsewhere, he was excellent, as was Kiwi World Cup winner Charlie Faumuina for Toulouse.

2. Julien Marchand (Toulouse): Despite missing the final due to Marchand is the complete footballer, with a peerless set piece and some serious gas in the loose. Paul Boudehent was in the middle of a massive La Rochelle scrummaging effort, whilst Peato Mauvuka deputised well for Marchand and deserves a shout out for his solid display in the final/

1. Cyril Baille (Toulouse): Baille was absolutely brilliant in the final and on another day may very well have been Star of the Game, coping all day with a man 35kgs heavier than him and running his legs into the ground. Jefferson Poirot went well all season fusing a starting place with an impact role for Bordeaux and was his usual jacking and tacking self, whilst Danny Priso made some telling runs and powerful drives in his usually impressive displays for La Rochelle.

scrumhalf

I know we should respect the officials but when you get royally shafted it's hard.

Saints-Wasps game yesterday, a young referee who was let down by his assistants (one of whom, Roy Maybank, has plenty of form for shafting us, most meoroably in a game at Saints about twenty years ago where he was refereeing an entirely different game to the one everyone else was watching) and, most notably, by the TMO Graham Hughes.

Hughes missed Dan Biggar trying to decapitate Jacob Umaga and then decided that Ribbans dropping the ball forward was no impediment to scoring a try. You know it's bad when Austin Healey says you've been hard done by whilst commentating. Hughes has form; he missed an eye goiuge on Josh Bassett earlier this season which was less gouge and more exploring for oil.

What's the point of having a TMO when he doesn't use his T to O  the M?