The Rugby Union Thread

VimFuego

my theory re Slade's omission is Gats is going to employ a bosh them in the pack, bosh them in the middle and bosh them on the wing strategy. Perhaps he feels we'll have more success playing through them than trying to go outside them. Guess we'll find out of that works in a short while.

crunchman

VimFuego said:

my theory re Slade's omission is Gats is going to employ a bosh them in the pack, bosh them in the middle and bosh them on the wing strategy. Perhaps he feels we'll have more success playing through them than trying to go outside them. Guess we'll find out of that works in a short while.

Maybe he'll call up Slade after Aki (and/or Farrell) is banned for trying to decapitate someone in the first test.

VimFuego

crunchman said:

VimFuego said:

my theory re Slade's omission is Gats is going to employ a bosh them in the pack, bosh them in the middle and bosh them on the wing strategy. Perhaps he feels we'll have more success playing through them than trying to go outside them. Guess we'll find out of that works in a short while.

Maybe he'll call up Slade after Aki (and/or Farrell) is banned for trying to decapitate someone in the first test.

heh, that is very possible. For sure Farrell has used up all his get out of no arms tackle free cards, a commuppance is overdue. 

Neill

tbm said:

No complaints really. Conan is a big surprise for me. When he's on form he's class, and has been in good shape recently, but  - like POM - he can go missing. Would be surprised to see him near the test side. Ryan and Ringrose haven't been good enough the last few months, but neither has Daly. How is Slade not in there? Not bringing Gray seems daft. he doesn't miss tackles. Ever. Like, EVER. He's a freak. 

Think a 12/13 of Aki and Henshaw is a possibility. Aki has a couple of reds recently for Ireland, needs to get lower in the tackle, but he's a unit with great hands. I can see the logic in bringing him v the Boks.  

This is why I'm bewildered by a few of the selections, and I assume there are reasons other than performance on the field.  Picking players on form doesn't explain how Daly is in the squad and Jonny Gray isn't.

It's not all about playing ability though is it.  Kyle Sinckler isn't there because there are issues with his temperament - at least as far as Gatland is concerned.  Similarly Joe Marler is known to have issues being away from home, and he made no secret of his lack of commitment being selected only for midweek games on the last campaign. 

Matt Stephens was taken on the Australia tour mainly, I suggest, because he is one of those Jason Leonard type sociable characters who does as much for the squad off the field as on it.  I wondered if there are similar characters in this selection.  

scrumhalf

Daly offers cover at 15, 13 and wing. At altitude he will also be able to biff penalties over from anywhere outside his own 22. Farrell offers cover at 10 and 12, although with the risk of his terrible tackling.

koneguitarist

Listening to Jim Hamilton and Andy Goode talking about Jonny Gray and yes he is a tackling machine, but comparing his stats to AWJ apparently AWJ misses a couple of tackles here and there but his tackles are more dominant resulting in more turnovers etc. And both agreed it was right choice. Though I was surprised. Also surprised at front row selection but we don’t have access to all the stats and results of their actions, 
I can see why Daly has been added but not sure I agree as it smacks of taking penalties from anywhere rather than scoring tries. 

Neill

I hear the social media in SA is already dismissing the Lions pack as far too small to take on the Springboks.  Particularly singling out Hamish Watson who seems to have attracted the "Hobbit" label - the guy is 16 stone FFS..!   I just hope he turns out to be one of the stars of the tour. 

fretmeister

16 stone is nothing in a modern pack.

Thats a centre now. And there’s few 20 stone wingers now.

crunchman

koneguitarist said:

Listening to Jim Hamilton and Andy Goode talking about Jonny Gray and yes he is a tackling machine, but comparing his stats to AWJ apparently AWJ misses a couple of tackles here and there but his tackles are more dominant resulting in more turnovers etc. And both agreed it was right choice. Though I was surprised. Also surprised at front row selection but we don’t have access to all the stats and results of their actions, 
I can see why Daly has been added but not sure I agree as it smacks of taking penalties from anywhere rather than scoring tries. 

I think it's his versatility more so than the kicking.   He can cover wing, fullback and outside centre.  Could be handy on the bench.  I can't see him starting though.

I wouldn't have taken him, but I can see why they have.

VimFuego

this is quite an interesting watch, I like his vids and he makes some sense:

So what's with this Lions squad? | SQUAD ANALYSIS & REACTION - YouTube

VimFuego

I'm reminded of an analysis of how SA won the World Cup and how Erasmus's ethos isn't necessarily picking the best players, but picking the right ones. Gats clearly has a game plan in mind on how he thinks SA can be beaten and it looks like he's picked the players that he thinks can do that. 

koneguitarist

Neill said:

I hear the social media in SA is already dismissing the Lions pack as far too small to take on the Springboks.  Particularly singling out Hamish Watson who seems to have attracted the "Hobbit" label - the guy is 16 stone FFS..!   I just hope he turns out to be one of the stars of the tour. 

They said the same in 97 when I think we got Tom Smith as prop who got under SA props. 

Gatland has a plan and I think he will get best out of players. 

sev112

Neill said:

We can argue about this all night long but can someone explain how Jonny Hill gets on the plane ahead of James Ryan and Johnny Gray?  

I have been astounded why Ryan has been in all of the pundits’squads for months when a) he hasn’t been playing, and in 2020 he was a shadow of the brilliant player he had been in the couple of years previously.  Henderson has been in my squad all season long, he has been excellent for a long while now, he was a bolter in the last Lions.  

But I must admit when I went through the squad Qi read it as Johnny Gray and it wasn’t 7 til a day later that I rechecked and was quite shocked, good player that Hill is , I certainly didn’t imagine he would be selected.  I had Beirne as my other 2nd row to create another flanker.

sev112

Neill said:

tbm said:

....

It's not all about playing ability though is it.  Kyle Sinckler isn't there because there are issues with his temperament - at least as far as Gatland is concerned.  Similarly Joe Marler is known to have issues being away from home, and he made no secret of his lack of commitment being selected only for midweek games on the last campaign. 

What is this temperament issue that you speak of?  Examples please, I think you would be hard pressed to find any in the test arena.  In the middle of scrums he comes up with a face of calmness, the ref has a word about the scrum , and he gets back on with it. no chat, no arguments, no fights.  

I think it’s unfair, he does not deserve that sort of criticism.  If he is t good enough or Gats doesn’t want him so be it, but perceptions are not reasonable

crunchman

sev112 said:

Neill said:

tbm said:

....

It's not all about playing ability though is it.  Kyle Sinckler isn't there because there are issues with his temperament - at least as far as Gatland is concerned.  Similarly Joe Marler is known to have issues being away from home, and he made no secret of his lack of commitment being selected only for midweek games on the last campaign. 

What is this temperament issue that you speak of?  Examples please, I think you would be hard pressed to find any in the test arena.  In the middle of scrums he comes up with a face of calmness, the ref has a word about the scrum , and he gets back on with it. no chat, no arguments, no fights.  

I think it’s unfair, he does not deserve that sort of criticism.  If he is t good enough or Gats doesn’t want him so be it, but perceptions are not reasonable

I think he did let AWJ wind him up in one game.  Overall though, he's a good player, and should be on the tour.

There seems to be a bit of a double standard with the props.  Obviously Furlong has to be the number 1 tighthead, but for me Sinckler is a better all round player than Fagerson.  The scrum is important, and but if he's picking Fagerson as a better scrummager, then why is Mako in the squad?  Mako is going to be a liability in the scrum against SA.

scrumhalf

Moving away from the Lions, England's halfback pairing this summer has to be Dan Robson and Marcus Smith, both of whom were outstanding as Wasps contrived to fuck it up yet again with last minute tries conceded in both halves.

Of course, this requires Eddie Jones to go for an exciting, attacking pairing so there's buggerall hope of it happening.

VimFuego

Smith has been on fire all season, easily the form 10 in Britain I'd say, he has that ability to make time slow down around him, he just seems to have so much time on the ball. EJ will probably pick him at tight head, then complain he had a crap game and never pick him again.

scrumhalf

VimFuego said:

Smith has been on fire all season, easily the form 10 in Britain I'd say, he has that ability to make time slow down around him, he just seems to have so much time on the ball. EJ will probably pick him at tight head, then complain he had a crap game and never pick him again.

Or get him off the bench with three minutes to go, as he does with Robson.

koneguitarist

sev112 said:

Neill said:

tbm said:

....

It's not all about playing ability though is it.  Kyle Sinckler isn't there because there are issues with his temperament - at least as far as Gatland is concerned.  Similarly Joe Marler is known to have issues being away from home, and he made no secret of his lack of commitment being selected only for midweek games on the last campaign. 

What is this temperament issue that you speak of?  Examples please, I think you would be hard pressed to find any in the test arena.  In the middle of scrums he comes up with a face of calmness, the ref has a word about the scrum , and he gets back on with it. no chat, no arguments, no fights.  

I think it’s unfair, he does not deserve that sort of criticism.  If he is t good enough or Gats doesn’t want him so be it, but perceptions are not reasonable

I think there is a temperament issue, think he may have had a ban recently for shouting at a ref, but he can also be wound up, bit like Farrell. Mind you Farrell winds himself up and loses control, I would never pick him against SA. 

Rocker

VimFuego said:

crunchman said:

Rocker said:

There are always heated discussions about who got left out of the Lions squad.  This time Johnny Gray, Johnny Sexton and Keith Earls must feel (more than slightly) agrieved at being omitted.

Why is it that England always seem to have the largest number of squad members.  In the recent 6N, England finished below mid table so it would seem obvious that Wales would get the nod number wise, Scotland,Ireland and England filling the rest of the places more or less evenly across the three Unions.  Not so.

England were in the World Cup Final 18 months ago. Those players haven't become bad players overnight.

There is always controversy about Lions squads.  Even as an Englishman, I wouldn't have picked Eliott Daly, Mako Vunipola, or Johnny Hill. On the other hand, I would have picked Kyle Sinckler, Joe Marler, and Johnny May.

I suppose my question for Rocker is how does he know more about rugby and team selection than the coaching staff of the lions, not one of whom is English. 

The answer to your question @VimFuego is that I know next to nothing about Lions team selection.  But I do watch the 6N games and can see when a player is really worth his place on the team.  And if his/their performance is repeated over and over (as the players I named in my post consistently do so), this makes them definitely in contention for a Lions callup.

But my main question has not been answered by anyone: Why is it that England always seem to have the largest number of squad members?