EU Referendum Vote - Poll

ICBM

Fretwired said:

For most people a car is a major purchase only made (public and business leaders) when people think the economy is doing well and they feel they can afford the repayments (not about to lose their jobs). It's a good indicator as when car sales fall the economy contracts - one reason is the number of people employed from the supply chain to manufacturing and sales in the showrooms.

Which is also why it's very important to us that the car makers here can continue to export most of their production to the EU. Although Nissan, Toyota, Honda etc are Japanese companies, the vast majority of the money those factories generate goes into their British supply chains and the people employed by them all. I don't think there's much chance of those companies moving production to Europe - they have too much invested here - but a fall in trade would still harm us as much as it does the Germans, French etc.

Fretwired

Interesting ... Farage was demonised on TV for suggesting this would happen ... and according to news reports the story was initially suppressed. The BBC knew about it in May but didn't report it. I wonder why?

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/four-syrian-immigrants-charged-sexual-assault-two-14-year-old-girls-newcastle-park-1564975

Fretwired

And something the EU and our PM doesn't want you to know about until after the referendum.

From today's Sunday Times (behind a firewall so I have copies all the text unedited):


Leaked UK plan to open doors for 1m Turks

Proposal under wraps until after EU vote

British diplomats secretly discussed granting visa-free travel to the UK for more than 1m Turks, according to leaked diplomatic cables seen by The Sunday Times.

The cache of five documents also suggests that EU officials are attempting to keep any visa deal with Turkey under wraps until after the referendum on June 23.

According to the telegrams, senior diplomats have advised ministers that the proposed EU deal with Turkey on visa-free travel within the Schengen area could lead the UK to consider extending the same privilege to up to 1.5m “special passport holders” from Turkey.

“Visa travel [to the UK] for Turkish special passport holders . . . would be a risk, but a significant and symbolic gesture to Turkey,” wrote Janet Douglas, the deputy head of mission in Ankara.

Failure to secure the EU deal on Turkish visa-free travel could prompt the government in Ankara to “open the floodgates” to millions more migrants currently held in Turkish camps, she warned.

According to the documents, the European Commission has tried to “avoid major escalation of tensions” with Turkey “before the end of June” so the issue could be kept “under control” — by implication before the referendum. This revelation prompted the former Tory leader Iain Duncan Smith to accuse David Cameron of being “in cahoots” with the commission to perpetuate “an appalling deceit” on the British public.

He said: “While the prime minister and the government have been denying any kind of deals with Turkey, this is absolute proof that behind the scenes they are already planning to bring the Turks in.

“The government is clearly working with the EU to keep a lid on it until after the referendum when all the decisions will surface too late.”

Downing Street said last night it was “untrue” that Britain plans to grant Turkish passport holders visa-free travel to the UK. The diplomatic papers show, however, that such a proposal — which would go much further than ministers have admitted — has already been raised.

The revelations come as a YouGov poll for The Sunday Times gives the “leave” campaign a one-point lead, 43% to 42%. They are also likely to intensify the referendum debate, in which Cameron has clashed with Boris Johnson and Michael Gove over the prospect of 77m Turks getting access to the EU’s borders-free Schengen zone, meaning they could travel as far as Calais without a visa.

Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey’s president, has agreed a deal with the EU to close his country’s border with Syria and is demanding visa- free travel to the EU in return.

In a telegram to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office on May 5, Douglas wrote: “Should [EU] visa liberalisation be granted, we will need to develop our own lines on the UK’s stance to visa-free travel for Turks.

“One option would be to assess again the possibility of visa travel for Turkish special passport holders which would be a risk, but a significant and symbolic gesture to Turkey.”

Without the EU deal on visa liberalisation, however, she warned that “an impetuous and riled Erdogan — prone to come out fighting when he feels betrayed — could carry through his threat to ‘open the floodgates’ to Europe for migrants”.

Special passports are supposed to be for Turkish government officials, civil servants, teachers and their families. But up to 1.5m Turks are understood to hold one. Until a rule change in 2009, they could travel to the UK without a visa.

Another telegram from diplomats in Berlin on May 13 reveals the lengths to which officials in Brussels have gone to keep a Turkish migration deal on ice until after the referendum.

Nick Pickard, the deputy head of mission in Germany, reported on Erdogan’s desire for both “EU accession and visa liberalisation”.

He said that Uwe Corsepius, Europe adviser to the German chancellor Angela Merkel , “was confident that the commission, for their part, would avoid major escalation of tensions before the end of June”, quoting him as saying: “We can keep this under control.”

The leaked telegrams also reveal that Theresa May, the home secretary, has been warned by Europol, the EU’s law enforcement agency, that increasing migration could raise the terrorist threat.

On May 20 the UK mission in Brussels sent a memo on a meeting of justice and home affairs ministers that says: “Europol . . . confirmed there was some emerging analysis linking migration with terrorism — for example, the false Syrian passports provided to the Paris bombers came from the same source as used by other smuggling networks.”

Taken together the documents show that the Foreign Office is encouraging other EU countries to grant Turkey visa-free travel to Schengen.

In her two telegrams, Douglas says Britain offered “to pledge a carrot of continued UK practical support” to Turkey’s border force and added: “We might usefully ensure member states realise the implications in migration terms of snubbing Turkey on visa liberalisation.”

She said Britain was viewed by the Turks “as an exception” to the “sceptical approach” of other EU governments.

Downing Street confirmed the cables were genuine, but then issued a joint statement by May and Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, denying plans to open Britain’s borders.

They said: “These are selectively leaked quotes from diplomatic telegrams designed to give a completely false impression that the UK is considering granting visa liberalisation to some Turkish citizens. That is completely untrue.

“The government’s policy is, and will remain, to maintain current visa requirements for all Turkish nationals wishing to visit the UK, regardless of what arrangements other member states in the Schengen area may make with Turkey.

“The purpose of diplomatic telegrams is for our embassies around the world to feed back information on the position and views of foreign governments. They are reports from our diplomatic posts, not statements of British government policy.

“As a full reading of these telegrams shows, our overriding focus has been on working with the Turkish authorities to tackle illegal immigration via Turkey, because that is in our national interest.

“It has been successful, with boat crossings from Turkey to Greece having fallen dramatically since the EU-Turkey deal was implemented.”

ICBM

But if you read the full quote, the headline of "opening the door to 1m Turks" and the first sentence "granting visa-free travel to the UK" is shown to be untrue, and hence is just another example of scaremongering.

The important bit:

“The government’s policy is, and will remain, to maintain current visa requirements for all Turkish nationals wishing to visit the UK, regardless of what arrangements other member states in the Schengen area may make with Turkey."

Fretwired

ICBM said:

The important bit:

“The government’s policy is, and will remain, to maintain current visa requirements for all Turkish nationals wishing to visit the UK, regardless of what arrangements other member states in the Schengen area may make with Turkey."

You cherry pick a quote from a government source after the details were leaked. What about the contents of leaked, secret documents of discussions between EU officials and British diplomats? The EU is putting pressure on the UK to take our fair share.

The cache of five documents also suggests that EU officials are attempting to keep any visa deal with Turkey under wraps until after the referendum on June 23.

According to the telegrams, senior diplomats have advised ministers that the proposed EU deal with Turkey on visa-free travel within the Schengen area could lead the UK to consider extending the same privilege to up to 1.5m “special passport holders” from Turkey.

“Visa travel [to the UK] for Turkish special passport holders . . . would be a risk, but a significant and symbolic gesture to Turkey,” wrote Janet Douglas, the deputy head of mission in Ankara.

Failure to secure the EU deal on Turkish visa-free travel could prompt the government in Ankara to “open the floodgates” to millions more migrants currently held in Turkish camps, she warned.

ICBM

Fretwired said:

You cherry pick a quote from a government source after the details were leaked. What about the contents of leaked, secret documents of discussions between EU officials and British diplomats?

I purposely highlighted a part of something you posted which purports to mean the exact opposite of what the full text says and is implied to do so by the headline writer.

Very typical of Leave campaign propaganda. It's entirely dishonest to use a headline which is contradicted by the text itself.

The 'what ifs' are just that. The visa requirement is a fact.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

You cherry pick a quote from a government source after the details were leaked. What about the contents of leaked, secret documents of discussions between EU officials and British diplomats?

I purposely highlighted a part of something you posted which purports to mean the exact opposite of what the full text says and is implied to do so by the headline writer.

Very typical of Leave campaign propaganda. It's entirely dishonest to use a headline which is contradicted by the text itself.

The 'what ifs' are just that. The visa requirement is a fact.

It's not Leave campaign propaganda. It's a serious story in the Sunday Times. The headline is not dishonest. The EU plans to allow access to a lot more than one million Turks - we would grant access to one million 'special passport holders' as a 'favour' to the EU. No one is saying one million Turks would turn up at Heathrow and its only visa free travel, but its the way it is supposed to be embargoed until after the referendum. Cameron has form on lying about immigration - reducing it to 100,000 people so he could win an election. He couldn't even do that for non-EU migration.

And Cameron said that allowing 20,000 unaccompanied refugee children from Syria is the right thing to do (which is was) wouldn't mean their families could come. Unfortunately the government has lost a court case (not publicised - I wonder why), so now all the families of the refugee children will now be allowed allowed into the UK. That could be 100,000 plus people. Small beer in the overall scheme of things and it is something we could handle so why not say it in the first place?

I just wonder when Cameron will stop lying. I have no faith in him or his government - it just one lie after another.

https://kittysjones.wordpress.com/2014/11/25/a-list-of-official-rebukes-for-tory-lies/

ICBM

Fretwired said:

It's not Leave campaign propaganda. It's a serious story in the Sunday Times. The headline is not dishonest.

…

No one is saying one million Turks would turn up at Heathrow

The headline *is* dishonest because that's exactly what it's trying to imply.

Fretwired said:

Leaked UK plan to open doors for 1m Turks

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

It's not Leave campaign propaganda. It's a serious story in the Sunday Times. The headline is not dishonest.

…

No one is saying one million Turks would turn up at Heathrow

The headline *is* dishonest because that's exactly what it's trying to imply.

No it isn't. Opening a door doesn't mean people will walk through it? Who says any Turks want to come to the UK let alone one million? They won't get EU citizens rights, so there's no benefits, and they will need work permits. The point is Cameron and the EU are colluding behind closed doors on what they are going to do about the migrant crisis - bribe Turkey to stem the flow of Syrians. That's just corrupt politics. This is how the EU works. It's secretive and undemocratic. Cameron should be open with the voters and it should be on the table during the referendum campaign.

ICBM

Seriously, you think "Leaked UK plan to open doors for 1m Turks" is *not* implying that they'll be able to come here?

Which they won't. It's rare that I would take anything Theresa May or Philip Hammond says at face value, but they are in fact correct *and that was reported in the article itself*, which renders the headline dishonest.

The Sunday Times is also a Murdoch paper, which means that it very much is Leave propaganda.

p90fool

Sambostar said:

I beg to differ, all the quiet old conservative people I talk to and trust me, I talk to a lot, are all voting out. 

They might just be saying what they think you want to hear, I bet you scare them shitless.

)

Fretwired

ICBM said:

The Sunday Times is also a Murdoch paper, which means that it very much is Leave propaganda.

Not that old chestnut. Read the Times do you? No thought not. Most of their articles are pro Remain. They're critical of Boris and co because they haven't articulated what life outside the EU might look like and they bang on about immigration rather than the economy because they have no idea what will happen to the economy.

The final paragraph from an editorial in today's Sunday Times:

We have gained immeasurably from the single market, which is why Margaret Thatcher imposed a three-line whip on the Conservative party to support it. It is inconceivable that leaving the EU will increase the freedom to trade that we currently enjoy. Membership of this club has always been a two-way street. But a prosperous and secure future for our children demands a vote to “remain”.

ICBM

Fretwired said:

ICBM said:

The Sunday Times is also a Murdoch paper, which means that it very much is Leave propaganda.

Not that old chestnut. Read the Times do you? No thought not.

No, I don't usually. I'm actually surprised that they should be pro-Remain, given the ownership. Interesting.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

ICBM said:

The Sunday Times is also a Murdoch paper, which means that it very much is Leave propaganda.

Not that old chestnut. Read the Times do you? No thought not.

No, I don't usually. I'm actually surprised that they should be pro-Remain, given the ownership. Interesting.

The Times is the paper of the establishment so will reflect the views of the establishment. It posts balanced articles but is firmly for Remain. Rupert Murdoch has retired and his son, who now runs the Empire, is more interested in Sky, internet-based services and expansion overseas. All the papers lose money and don't have the influence they once had.

thebreeze

Fretwired said: Interesting ... Farage was demonised on TV for suggesting this would happen ... and according to news reports the story was initially suppressed. The BBC new about it in May but didn't report it. I wonder why?

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/four-syrian-immigrants-charged-sexual-assault-two-14-year-old-girls-newcastle-park-1564975
Sorry - but really why are you posting this?  "Interesting" because, like Farage, you can whip up the fervour of "us and them" and play to the racist lowest common denominator?  If you're so interested in injustices and the horrors of sexual assaults why aren't you posting links to all the examples of sexual assaults which are carried out by all the English people up and down the country on a daily basis.  The VAST majority of sexual assaults, rapes and child abuse are carried out and take place within the family - unpalatable but true.  I imagine you'll find most of them have been living here for generations, call themselves white and English.  I'd say that was a much more pressing issue just on the numbers alone.

There is no excuse for sexual assaults or abuse but equally that article makes no inquiry and no consideration.  The accused teenagers were from Syria ffs.  How much horror and abuse have they had to endure, witness etc?  Do they have parents or have they been raped and murdered?  Perhaps if we were a bit more helpful, rather than making them feel unwelcome, displaced and foreign (in the whole sense of the word) - and btw the EU can do a lot more on this, perhaps war-traumatised children (16-20) wouldn't be so susceptible to acting out in this alleged way.  The comments which follow that article are exactly the kinds of responses that these articles are trying to provoke.  We can put all our shit onto these "foreigners", then we won't have to look at any of our own. 

Sambostar

The old liberal give an inch they take a mile eh?  It's the reason we are in the state we are now.  So who is going to pay for all this special treatment and care when we can't even afford to look after our own people with mental health problems or our own people on the streets?

Be much easier and far cheaper and sustainable in the long run to just shoot them if you ask me.

One in seven in UK prisons are foreign nationals who don't even hold a UK passport.

Fretwired

thebreeze said:

Fretwired said:

Interesting ... Farage was demonised on TV for suggesting this would happen ... and according to news reports the story was initially suppressed. The BBC new about it in May but didn't report it. I wonder why?

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/four-syrian-immigrants-charged-sexual-assault-two-14-year-old-girls-newcastle-park-1564975

Sorry - but really why are you posting this?  "Interesting" because, like Farage, you can whip up the fervour of "us and them" and play to the racist lowest common denominator?  If you're so interested in injustices and the horrors of sexual assaults why aren't you posting links to all the examples of sexual assaults which are carried out by all the English people up and down the country on a daily basis.  The VAST majority of sexual assaults, rapes and child abuse are carried out and take place within the family - unpalatable but true.  I imagine you'll find most of them have been living here for generations, call themselves white and English.  I'd say that was a much more pressing issue just on the numbers alone.

There is no excuse for sexual assaults or abuse but equally that article makes no inquiry and no consideration.  The accused teenagers were from Syria ffs.  How much horror and abuse have they had to endure, witness etc?  Do they have parents or have they been raped and murdered?  Perhaps if we were a bit more helpful, rather than making them feel unwelcome, displaced and foreign (in the whole sense of the word) - and btw the EU can do a lot more on this, perhaps war-traumatised children (16-20) wouldn't be so susceptible to acting out in this alleged way.  The comments which follow that article are exactly the kinds of responses that these articles are trying to provoke.  We can put all our shit onto these "foreigners", then we won't have to look at any of our own. 

Most sexual assaults are reported in the press. This attack happened ages ago but was suppressed by the police. Why? My post is about about the suppression of news by the establishment scared it might affect a referendum result so reel your neck in.

Axe_meister

I think leaving will not only screw us in the short term, it will cause a dominoe effect across the whole of Europe screwing everybody else's economies which regardless of trade agreements will screw us further

ToneControl

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/focus/eu-to-grab-more-powers-warns-leave-camp-rdxms33gt

This says that now the EU wants to force us to hand over our seat at the UN security council

But they're keeping the decision until after the referendum, for some reason

This must be part of the way that we have more influence as part of the EU???

Fretwired

ToneControl said:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/focus/eu-to-grab-more-powers-warns-leave-camp-rdxms33gt

This says that now the EU wants to force us to hand over our seat at the UN security council

But they're keeping the decision until after the referendum, for some reason

This must be part of the way that we have more influence as part of the EU???

I'm for out but that sounds like bollocks to me. What about France? I can't see France giving up its seat. And secondly the permanent members of the UNSC are all nuclear powers.