That petition...

chrispy108

Transferable vote is awful. Your fourth choice becomes worth the same as my first?

10% "i want this guy" + 41% "meh they'll do" is better than "49% "i want this guy"?

ICBM

chrispy108 said:

Transferable vote is awful. Your fourth choice becomes worth the same as my first?

No it doesn't. It's worth nothing at all unless the voting gets to the fourth round - that's the whole point of ranking them.

chrispy108

Hence the word becomes in my sentence.

Fretwired

Rumours circulating at Westminster that the Petition has won a debate in Parliament on holding a second referendum. Given the there are more pro EU MPs than Brexiters we could be on for round two.

Pathetic.

Sporky

chrispy108 said:

Transferable vote is awful. Your fourth choice becomes worth the same as my first?

10% "i want this guy" + 41% "meh they'll do" is better than "49% "i want this guy"?

In practice that's enormously unlikely - and I say that having run (and run in) a goodly number of STV elections.

In fact, it's barely possible with those figures unless there are a lot of candidates (there must be a minimum of five to get to four rounds) and they're widely spread in popularity. Pretty much every vote from the other candidates has to go to the one who got 10% of the opening in every round.

Of course, that's actually quite democratic. What it looks like is that the one who got 49% in the first round is supported by a significant voting block (for example, they might be one of the three main parties, or a religious candidate in a mostly non-religion based election), but everyone else would rather have anyone else but them.

Where it is possible, and arguably desirable, is in just that scenario - a candidate has a significant following but is loathsome to everyone outside that following. There's pretty much no other way that could happen - to get 49% in the first round but not to pick up any more votes is odd.

ICBM

You're missing the point - the votes are not of equal weight because the lower-choice votes only get counted if a decision hasn't been reached by the first choices, then the seconds and so on. So first choices are worth the most. The candidate with the smallest number of first choices is eliminated first, and can't then win no matter how many lower-choice votes he gets. (And so on at each round.)

http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/single-transferable-vote

This is in the wrong thread really .

MtB

1.6 million signatures now (that's 300,000 in 2 hours). Give it another week or so.........

lloyd

Fretwired said:

Rumours circulating at Westminster that the Petition has won a debate in Parliament on holding a second referendum. Given the there are more pro EU MPs than Brexiters we could be on for round two.

Pathetic.

If it reaches enough signatures it "has" to be discussed really doesn't it? It's their duty to. The discussion should go something like-what do we think of this petition? Well the stay lot lost last time so the people have spoken. Next topic.

Chalky

lloyd;1125406" said:

Fretwired said:

Rumours circulating at Westminster that the Petition has won a debate in Parliament on holding a second referendum. Given the there are more pro EU MPs than Brexiters we could be on for round two.



Pathetic.


















If it reaches enough signatures it "has" to be discussed really doesn't it? It's their duty to. The discussion should go something like-what do we think of this petition? Well the stay lot lost last time so the people have spoken. Next topic.

Fast forward to next election. Narrow victory by one of the parties. Petition started to repeat election result until petitioners preferred party wins.....

Fretwired

Chalky said:

lloyd;1125406" said:

Fretwired said:

Rumours circulating at Westminster that the Petition has won a debate in Parliament on holding a second referendum. Given the there are more pro EU MPs than Brexiters we could be on for round two.



Pathetic.


















If it reaches enough signatures it "has" to be discussed really doesn't it? It's their duty to. The discussion should go something like-what do we think of this petition? Well the stay lot lost last time so the people have spoken. Next topic.

Fast forward to next election. Narrow victory by one of the parties. Petition started to repeat election result until petitioners preferred party wins.....

Why stop with an election .. why not the budget? Stop tax rises ..

Heartfeltdawn

chrispy108 said:

Transferable vote is awful. Your fourth choice becomes worth the same as my first?

10% "i want this guy" + 41% "meh they'll do" is better than "49% "i want this guy"?

Candidates A and B get 40% each of the vote on the first count. No majority. The ballot papers that had these two candidates as their first choice are then removed. 

All the other ballot papers who had Candidate A or B as their second choice are then counted. 60% of those ballot papers went for A: 40% went for B. 

So the people who actually decide who wins aren't the ones who voted for Candidate A or B as their first choice. It gives a far greater spread of voter involvement. 

The results also give some really interesting data. For example the ward I counted in May 2015 for the Bristol mayoral election threw up a tremendous number of people who went UKIP for 1st choice and Labour for 2nd. The election was eventually won by a Labour mayor. It supoprted the notion that UKIP supporters are not all right wing eejits in a similar way that this referendum has shown that voting Leave is not purely a UKIP/Tory supporter policy. 

Sporky

Chalky said:

Fast forward to next election. Narrow victory by one of the parties. Petition started to repeat election result until petitioners preferred party wins.....

I thought you were in favour of democracy? That tactic only works if people eventually vote the other way, and it requires a majority, which is what you've said is important.

If the vote had been remain, would you have vociferously opposed any future referendum on leaving the EU?

If there is a second referendum, and it goes remain, will you accept it? Or would you think it was a stitch-up and try to get the original decision reinstated?

chillidoggy

They'll be civil war if another referendum is announced. The Remain group are acting as stupidly as they accused the Leave group.

Pathetic indeed.

EricTheWeary

lloyd said:

Fretwired said:

Rumours circulating at Westminster that the Petition has won a debate in Parliament on holding a second referendum. Given the there are more pro EU MPs than Brexiters we could be on for round two.

Pathetic.

If it reaches enough signatures it "has" to be discussed really doesn't it? It's their duty to. The discussion should go something like-what do we think of this petition? Well the stay lot lost last time so the people have spoken. Next topic.

Having been part of a petition campaign that exceeded the target all that happened was that the relevant minister had to look at it to decide if it should be debated, he decided it wasn't and it wasn't. 

Heartfeltdawn

lloyd said:

Fretwired said:

Rumours circulating at Westminster that the Petition has won a debate in Parliament on holding a second referendum. Given the there are more pro EU MPs than Brexiters we could be on for round two.

Pathetic.

If it reaches enough signatures it "has" to be discussed really doesn't it? It's their duty to. The discussion should go something like-what do we think of this petition? Well the stay lot lost last time so the people have spoken. Next topic.

And it is right that it is discussed. Every bill and every budget is discussed after the event. Something of this magnitude should be discussed within Parliament as well. I completely agree that the specifics of this petition are idiotic but the desire for more engagement from the electorate is a good thing. 

Nunogilberto

I don't necessarily agree with the outcome, but we must now move on - the people have spoken.

Chalky

Sporky;1125451" said:

Chalky said:



Fast forward to next election. Narrow victory by one of the parties. Petition started to repeat election result until petitioners preferred party wins.....





I thought you were in favour of democracy? That tactic only works if people eventually vote the other way, and it requires a majority, which is what you've said is important.



If the vote had been remain, would you have vociferously opposed any future referendum on leaving the EU?



If there is a second referendum, and it goes remain, will you accept it? Or would you think it was a stitch-up and try to get the original decision reinstated?

I AM in favour of democracy. A petition isn't democratic, its just a joint view by many people.

Its easy to demonstrate the limits of democracy by an ad absurdium argument. Are you suggesting we have a referendum every month? A general election every year? But there has to be a practical limit to how often and on what topics you hold a vote. Thats not anti-democratic, just a practicality.

chrispy108

ICBM said:

You're missing the point - the votes are not of equal weight because the lower-choice votes only get counted if a decision hasn't been reached by the first choices, then the seconds and so on. So first choices are worth the most. The candidate with the smallest number of first choices is eliminated first, and can't then win no matter how many lower-choice votes he gets. (And so on at each round.)

Ok, I should have said your fourth choice, in some circumstances, becomes worth the same as my first. Your second choice, will often be worth the same as my first.

I'm not missing the point at all, I know full well how STV works. A vote gets moved around when the candidate is eliminated, and is worth the same (one vote) no matter whether it's a first or fourth choice. I fundamentally don't agree that 51% of first/second/third choices (but mostly second/thirds) is worth more than 49% of first/second/third choices (but mostly firsts).

I can agree with Heartfeltdawn that it definitely gives some interesting data, but I still don't like the idea of an election being decided by people's second choices.

Wazmeister

Chalky said:

Plain silly. Arbitrary figures. Unrepresentative of the history of elections in this country. And its an old idea.

Basically undemocratic because you are constraining the process arbitrarily to defeat change (the Leave campaign) and protect the status quo (the Remain campaign).

To test it try this. Boris takes over as Prime Minister. Comes up for election. But for another party to win they must get at least 60% of the vote on at least 75% turn out.

Now, would the Remainers see that as democratic? Of course not.

It is exactly an example of what democracy IS...

Chalky

Wazmeister;1125561" said:

Chalky said:

Plain silly. Arbitrary figures. Unrepresentative of the history of elections in this country. And its an old idea.



Basically undemocratic because you are constraining the process arbitrarily to defeat change (the Leave campaign) and protect the status quo (the Remain campaign).



To test it try this. Boris takes over as Prime Minister. Comes up for election. But for another party to win they must get at least 60% of the vote on at least 75% turn out.



Now, would the Remainers see that as democratic? Of course not.







It is exactly an example of what democracy IS...

What makes you say that?