so ....... are we leaving or not????

capo4th

It's all getting a bit repetitive I have not heard anything from the lad at work who voted out. 

Maybe he is till trying to work out his border control strategy and how high the wall would need to be between Engand and Scotland.

ICBM

Here's an idea I don't think I've seen mentioned yet.

If England and Wales want to leave, they should declare independence from the UK. That would put them out of the EU immediately, leaving the United Kingdom (Of Scotland, Northern Ireland And Gibraltar) in, retaining the UK's membership and so having no need to re-apply. Then it's purely an internal matter for the UK and the EU has no say over it at all.

If you want to take back control, that seems the most effective way of doing it to me...

digitalscream

ICBM said:

Here's an idea I don't think I've seen mentioned yet.

If England and Wales want to leave, they should declare independence from the UK. That would put them out of the EU immediately, leaving the United Kingdom (Of Scotland, Northern Ireland And Gibraltar) in, retaining the UK's membership and so having no need to re-apply. Then it's purely an internal matter for the UK and the EU has no say over it at all.

If you want to take back control, that seems the most effective way of doing it to me...

I don't think that can be done because the United Kingdom itself is tied to the monarchy, which is based in England.

Chalky

digitalscream;1132505" said:

ICBM said:

Here's an idea I don't think I've seen mentioned yet.



If England and Wales want to leave, they should declare independence from the UK. That would put them out of the EU immediately, leaving the United Kingdom (Of Scotland, Northern Ireland And Gibraltar) in, retaining the UK's membership and so having no need to re-apply. Then it's purely an internal matter for the UK and the EU has no say over it at all.



If you want to take back control, that seems the most effective way of doing it to me...
















I don't think that can be done because the United Kingdom itself is tied to the monarchy, which is based in England.

Its like saying the teenagers are old enough to lead independent lives so the parents should move out! )

Chalky

Anyway, why do you assume Northern Ireland and Gibraltar want to stay in the EU more than they want to stay in the UK?

ICBM

digitalscream said:

I don't think that can be done because the United Kingdom itself is tied to the monarchy, which is based in England.

Only because James VI took it there.

The Queen would still be Queen Of England and Queen Of Scots regardless, the same as if Scotland becomes independent.

Chalky said:

Its like saying the teenagers are old enough to lead independent lives so the parents should move out! )

If you want control, take it. What's stopping you?

Chalky said:

Anyway, why do you assume Northern Ireland and Gibraltar want to stay in the EU more than they want to stay in the UK?

They *would* be staying in the UK. It would be England and Wales that are leaving.

Thought experiment obviously… up to a point .

But slightly seriously, why wouldn't you want to do this if you really want to leave the EU that badly, and don't care if the other three regions want to stay? It would solve all the problems at once.

Chalky

ICBM;1132523" said:

digitalscream said:I don't think that can be done because the United Kingdom itself is tied to the monarchy, which is based in England.





Only because James VI took it there.

The Queen would still be Queen Of England and Queen Of Scots regardless, the same as if Scotland becomes independent.




Chalky said:Its like saying the teenagers are old enough to lead independent lives so the parents should move out! )





If you want control, take it. What's stopping you?

Because the UK is the legal entity - we can't declare independence from ourselves. Neither Scotland nor NI nor Gibraltar are an entity in the eyes of the UN or EU, who would view it as the UK trying to jettison them.

Hence my analogy - the UK is the parent.

ICBM

Chalky said:

Because the UK is the legal entity - we can't declare independence from ourselves. Neither Scotland nor NI nor Gibraltar are an entity in the eyes of the UN or EU, who would view it as the UK trying to jettison them.

No, you're not quite getting it - not the UK declaring independence from the UK, *England and Wales* declaring independence from the UK. England and Wales are not the UK - although assuming that they are is quite illustrative…

Chalky

ICBM;1132542" said:

Chalky said:Because the UK is the legal entity - we can't declare independence from ourselves. Neither Scotland nor NI nor Gibraltar are an entity in the eyes of the UN or EU, who would view it as the UK trying to jettison them.





No, you're not quite getting it - not the UK declaring independence from the UK, *England and Wales* declaring independence from the UK. England and Wales are not the UK - although assuming that they are is quite illustrative…

Er, the seat of power is in Westminster. The UN uses that sort of info in its definition of the legal entity that is the country.

ICBM

Easy enough to move - Edinburgh has a perfectly good parliament building. Belfast has a nice one too I believe.

More importantly, why are you coming up with excuses - why not just declare independence now and be done with it? The EU can't stop you. Scotland can't stop you. Take control .

Fretwired

Staying .. France changes stance on migrant controls for UK. Gove stabs Boris in  the back (didn't see that happeningso May will be PM ..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/30/freedom-of-movement-reform-on-the-table-for-brexit-talks-suggest/

ICBM

Fretwired said:

Staying .. France changes stance on migrant controls for UK. Gove stabs Boris in  the back (didn't see that happeningso May will be PM ..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/30/freedom-of-movement-reform-on-the-table-for-brexit-talks-suggest/

Murray Walker is the French finance minister?

You're right, I really didn't see that coming.

Chalky

ICBM;1132582" said:

Easy enough to move - Edinburgh has a perfectly good parliament building. Belfast has a nice one too I believe.

More importantly, why are you coming up with excuses - why not just declare independence now and be done with it? The EU can't stop you. Scotland can't stop you. Take control .

Because we'd have to form a new country with a new central bank, new currency, etc. That's the sort of thing Scotland might do but us Sassenach's know that is a daft strategy.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Easy enough to move - Edinburgh has a perfectly good parliament building. Belfast has a nice one too I believe.

More importantly, why are you coming up with excuses - why not just declare independence now and be done with it? The EU can't stop you. Scotland can't stop you. Take control .

Declare UDI. What would Scotland use for currency? Scotland would be outside the EU and would not be a WTO member (takes years) so could not trade with the EU and that means England (65% of Scotland's exports go to England). There would have to be a border between England and Scotland and passport controls. The Barnett formula funding would go but Scotland could keep all the oil revenue. Not really feasible.

Sturgeon's no fool. She's putting pressure on Westminster and no doubt behind the scenes there's dialugue.

Chalky

Go all Rhodesia on us...

quarky

Fretwired said:

Staying .. France changes stance on migrant controls for UK. Gove stabs Boris in  the back (didn't see that happeningso May will be PM ..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/30/freedom-of-movement-reform-on-the-table-for-brexit-talks-suggest/

"When we negotiate with a country, a third party, Norway, Switzerland to take countries that are very close, we discuss all subjects: under what conditions there is freedom of movement of people; freedom of movement of goods; of capital.

“That is something that is very important for the UK with all the questions about financial services. So we discuss everything.”"

That reads to me that leaving is more likely.

Same with the comment from Obama:

In the long term, Obama said he does not 'anticipate that there is going to be major cataclysmic changes as a consequence of this.' 

'I would not overstate it,' Obama said. 'There's been a little bit of hysteria post-Brexit vote, as if somehow NATO's gone, the trans-Atlantic alliance is dissolving, and every country is rushing off to its own corner. That's not what's happening.'  

...

"While the UK's relationship with the EU will change, one thing that will not change is special relationship that exists between our two nations," Mr Obama said.

Rocker

What about the 4 milo plus signatures? Has that petition any status? Just heard that Boris has withdrawn from the leader election. Looks like he was outmanoeuvred by David....

paulmapp8306

ICBM said:

Here's an idea I don't think I've seen mentioned yet.

If England and Wales want to leave, they should declare independence from the UK. That would put them out of the EU immediately, leaving the United Kingdom (Of Scotland, Northern Ireland And Gibraltar) in, retaining the UK's membership and so having no need to re-apply. Then it's purely an internal matter for the UK and the EU has no say over it at all.

If you want to take back control, that seems the most effective way of doing it to me...

Can we leave them with our deficite?