Did Corbyn intentionally not support Remain properly, or is he not very good at politics?

Evilmags

Is Labour meant for guilt ridden middle and upper class virtue signalers or working class people? Not sure if I know an more.

ToneControl

ICBM said:

Worse than his performance in the referendum - the result may or may not be his fault (I think it was probably a contributing factor) - it's exposed that he just isn't a very good leader. He's a good chairman of a committee probably - he can simultaneously accommodate opposing views and arrive at a considered compromise - but he's poor at decision-making. And in spite of his claim of being able to tolerate dissent he's sacked probably his most capable minister for criticising his leadership.

It's very sad really. I genuinely think he was the best candidate out of the four who stood - and I still do - and that he had a real opportunity to make the Labour Party something worthwhile again, instead of New Labour's Tories with red ties. I don't like the idea of him being forced out by the type of Westminster-circus MPs who got Labour into the position it's in today, but I think that's more about his leadership than his politics, and I can see why they feel they have to do it.

If he does lose a vote of confidence and there's a contest in which he stands, he will win again because he is overwhelmingly supported by the membership, but at the expense of very likely splitting the party and making the more left-wing part of it politically irrelevant. Or quite possibly both parts.

all that was obvious 12 months ago 

he was only the best candidate last year if you wanted a further left candidate, and didn't mind that he was clearly unelectable: The Tories probably only got voted in last time because Cameron has everything Corbyn doesn't: Intelligence, charisma and leadership skills

Evilmags

ToneControl;1129286" said:

ICBM said:

Worse than his performance in the referendum - the result may or may not be his fault (I think it was probably a contributing factor) - it's exposed that he just isn't a very good leader. He's a good chairman of a committee probably - he can simultaneously accommodate opposing views and arrive at a considered compromise - but he's poor at decision-making. And in spite of his claim of being able to tolerate dissent he's sacked probably his most capable minister for criticising his leadership.

It's very sad really. I genuinely think he was the best candidate out of the four who stood - and I still do - and that he had a real opportunity to make the Labour Party something worthwhile again, instead of New Labour's Tories with red ties. I don't like the idea of him being forced out by the type of Westminster-circus MPs who got Labour into the position it's in today, but I think that's more about his leadership than his politics, and I can see why they feel they have to do it.

If he does lose a vote of confidence and there's a contest in which he stands, he will win again because he is overwhelmingly supported by the membership, but at the expense of very likely splitting the party and making the more left-wing part of it politically irrelevant. Or quite possibly both parts.





all that was obvious 12 months ago 

he was only the best candidate last year if you wanted a further left candidate, and didn't mind that he was clearly unelectable: The Tories probably only got voted in last time because Cameron has everything Corbyn doesn't: Intelligence, charisma and leadership skills

They stood against Milliband though, who while not as lacking in basic graces as Corbyn, lacks Cameron's social ease

ToneControl

have a look at Corbyn's approval ratings amongst 2015 Labour voters, already down to 4% by January 2016:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/12089893/Jeremy-Corbyns-fans-are-making-Labour-look-like-a-cult.html

Notice that Cameron was 70-80%

The conclusion for me is that Corbyn's "mandate" comes from a small minority of more left-leaning idealists, and that if another leadership election is run, with the same result, then we could see the Labour party splitting into 2 parties

It would be better for the Labour party if loads of normal voters registered for £4 or whatever and overruled the naive newcomers

ToneControl

Evilmags said:

ToneControl;1129286" said:

ICBM said:


all that was obvious 12 months ago 

he was only the best candidate last year if you wanted a further left candidate, and didn't mind that he was clearly unelectable: The Tories probably only got voted in last time because Cameron has everything Corbyn doesn't: Intelligence, charisma and leadership skills

They stood against Milliband though, who while not as lacking in basic graces as Corbyn, lacks Cameron's social ease

certainly. The UK demands presidential charisma nowadays. The other Milliband would have done better

I can't believe anyone thought Osborne had a hope of being PM for that reason (never mind the fact that he's Tim nice but dim)

ToneControl

New statesman wants his head:

http://www.newstatesman.com/2016/06/corbyns-supporters-loved-his-principles-he-ditched-them-eu-campaign

chillidoggy

Corbyn will soon fade away into Labour history.

ICBM

ToneControl said:

he was only the best candidate last year if you wanted a further left candidate, and didn't mind that he was clearly unelectable: The Tories probably only got voted in last time because Cameron has everything Corbyn doesn't: Intelligence, charisma and leadership skills

No, he was the best candidate because the others were all vacuous New Labour talking heads without a principle or a purpose between them and an inability to speak or probably even think in anything other than soundbites. None of them would have made a credible leader or provided even the possibility of a fresh start which Corbyn did.

Corbyn at least has a clear position on most important social and economic issues. Unfortunately the main one he doesn't seem to is the EU. I understand why, since the EU is very far from perfect, but he needed to put his nuanced balance aside once he'd decided that even being 70% in favour of it required 100% commitment to campaigning for it.

I don't think he lacks intelligence but I agree he lacks charisma - and critically, leadership skills. I never thought he was a future PM - I just hoped that he would reshape the party into something more than just a different set of power-seeking careerists, and probably hand over to someone younger and more charismatic with about a year to go before the next election. Sadly I think his unexpected leadership may have gone to his head a bit and he's become intolerant of criticism, and if he stays he will simply lead the Labour Party out into the desert to die.

ICBM

ToneControl said:

The other Milliband would have done better

David Miliband is a narcissistic coward, and the greatest thing Ed Miliband ever did was to stop him becoming leader.

Whatever you think of Gordon Brown, David Miliband first stabbed him in the back by publicly refusing to support him, then when there was a clear opportunity to challenge him before the 2010 election, he didn't have the guts. He let Cameron and Clegg finish the job, and then when Brown fell he assumed the leadership was his by right. When his little brother then unexpectedly stood for it and won, instead of giving him his support and working for the party, he stalked off in a huff… only finally returning to put the boot in when Ed was down after losing the election.

My guess is that Ed - who is not a natural leader, and never looked comfortable doing it - only stood for the leadership because he had a lifetime's experience of his brother's character and thought that anything was worth stopping him and potentially becoming PM.

Emp_Fab

TTony said:

The strange thing is, I *know* this is all a dream, but it all feels like it's really happenning.

Next thing you know, England will lose to Iceland in the Euro Championships!!

LOLz.

If you ever have any premonitions about my sudden demise - keep 'em to yourself will you.  Ta.

ToneControl

ICBM said:

ToneControl said:

he was only the best candidate last year if you wanted a further left candidate, and didn't mind that he was clearly unelectable: The Tories probably only got voted in last time because Cameron has everything Corbyn doesn't: Intelligence, charisma and leadership skills

No, he was the best candidate because the others were all vacuous New Labour talking heads without a principle or a purpose between them and an inability to speak or probably even think in anything other than soundbites. None of them would have made a credible leader or provided even the possibility of a fresh start which Corbyn did.

Corbyn at least has a clear position on most important social and economic issues. Unfortunately the main one he doesn't seem to is the EU. I understand why, since the EU is very far from perfect, but he needed to put his nuanced balance aside once he'd decided that even being 70% in favour of it required 100% commitment to campaigning for it.

I don't think he lacks intelligence but I agree he lacks charisma - and critically, leadership skills. I never thought he was a future PM - I just hoped that he would reshape the party into something more than just a different set of power-seeking careerists, and probably hand over to someone younger and more charismatic with about a year to go before the next election. Sadly I think his unexpected leadership may have gone to his head a bit and he's become intolerant of criticism, and if he stays he will simply lead the Labour Party out into the desert to die.

Andy Burnham would have been a much better choice, I think he is a "company man", and prepared to compromise, but he has seemed OK to me, other than a few embarrassing interviews where he'd been told what to say - he was the closest to a Cameron out of that bunch of candidates, unlike Cooper, who is like a robot.

You're using a lot of loaded language there, and you can't simply assert that no other candidate had any principles or purpose

You can see from the approval ratings that, before the EU referendum, Corbyn was stunningly unpopular with labour voters. 4% - that's probably a record. Do you accept this? I told you that I would consider not voting Labour for the first time, it seems many others may agree

He does lack intelligence - he is unable to understand the complexity of any issue (which may be the key to his appeal with the young - I remember politics at university followed this kind of "everything is black or white" theme). For him (like the Greeks), if you identify what you think is a worthy need, you just spend cashs on it, and use "peoples' QE" or whatever to pay for it. If you need more cash to spend, simply increase taxes, by whatever amount it takes. These are the kind of mistakes Labour made in the 1960s, why did he not learn this like everyone else? The economy is a complex system (like the weather), you can't just pull one bit of it out of shape and assume the rest will stay as-is

Political parties will always be dominated by big egos. This is unavoidable. Same as with vocalists

Anyway, I agree - Corbyn could well be a fresh end, rather than a fresh start

ToneControl

ICBM said:

ToneControl said:

The other Milliband would have done better

David Miliband is a narcissistic coward, and the greatest thing Ed Miliband ever did was to stop him becoming leader.

Whatever you think of Gordon Brown, David Miliband first stabbed him in the back by publicly refusing to support him, then when there was a clear opportunity to challenge him before the 2010 election, he didn't have the guts. He let Cameron and Clegg finish the job, and then when Brown fell he assumed the leadership was his by right. When his little brother then unexpectedly stood for it and won, instead of giving him his support and working for the party, he stalked off in a huff… only finally returning to put the boot in when Ed was down after losing the election.

My guess is that Ed - who is not a natural leader, and never looked comfortable doing it - only stood for the leadership because he had a lifetime's experience of his brother's character and thought that anything was worth stopping him and potentially becoming PM.

I don't have much knowledge of all that - but I'm not sure any of that would mean he stood less chance of leading Labour to success than his brother

Teetonetal

It's funny, but almost all my friends were singing Corbyn's praises when he got re-elected and there was post after post on facebook about how wonderful he is and how he will make Labour a force again.

Now same people are dismayed Cameron has gone and are suddenly saying that Corbyn has the best policies but is no leader, so should go and would never get elected anyway as he is too left wing.

Same friends are still screaming about the bexit result and made similar noises at last election.

ICBM

ToneControl said:

He does lack intelligence - he is unable to understand the complexity of any issue (which may be the key to his appeal with the young - I remember politics at university followed this kind of "everything is black or white" theme).

I don't think he lacks intelligence at all - his whole philosophy is that things aren't black or white. His problem is that he can't make clear decisions. The key to his appeal with the young is that he is not a career politician and is seen to be honest - he might have been in parliament for thirty years, but he's never toed the party line or made any attempt to advance himself.

I don't disagree that he's lost the support of most Labour voters - but enough of those Labour voters had deserted New Labour for the real Tories anyway, and wouldn't be coming back for another round of the same faces.

But whatever, I agree that he's going to lead the Labour Party to destruction if he stays. The full support of the party membership won't help if they're the only ones in the country who will vote for him.

ToneControl said:

I don't have much knowledge of all that - but I'm not sure any of that would mean he stood less chance of leading Labour to success than his brother

You only had to be watching what was going on in the last years of Brown's government and the first of the Coalition to spot that. I'm not sure whether he would have lead Labour to success either, but the concept of him as PM is really frightening.

Teetonetal said:

Now same people are dismayed Cameron has gone and are suddenly saying that Corbyn has the best policies but is no leader, so should go and would never get elected anyway as he is too left wing.

I'm not at all sorry that Cameron has gone, although I'm worried that we may be about the get a more right-wing government that no-one voted for.

But it's true that if there is a General Election soon, Corbyn will not win anyway - although I don't think it's much to do with being left-wing.

scrumhalf

Corbyn was popular with people who voted Labour. There was very little chance of him gaining middle-ground support in sufficient quantities to turn it into parliamentary seats. This is what Blair did, and whilst the Corbynistas revile Blair he had more broad-based support.

ICBM

scrumhalf said:

Corbyn was popular with people who voted Labour. There was very little chance of him gaining middle-ground support in sufficient quantities to turn it into parliamentary seats. This is what Blair did, and whilst the Corbynistas revile Blair he had more broad-based support.

To be fair, if Blair hadn't set fire to the middle east and allowed his chancellor to bankrupt the country, he'd probably still be quite popular.

ToneControl

scrumhalf said:

Corbyn was popular with people who voted Labour. There was very little chance of him gaining middle-ground support in sufficient quantities to turn it into parliamentary seats. This is what Blair did, and whilst the Corbynistas revile Blair he had more broad-based support.

He wasn't popular with people who voted labout

I and many other life-long Labour voters were deeply worried. I might have even voted against labour

as I said before look at Corbyn's approval ratings amongst 2015 Labour voters, 

only 32% last september, 

already down to 4% by January 2016:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/12089893/Jeremy-Corbyns-fans-are-making-Labour-look-like-a-cult.html

Fretwired

Axe_meister

The scariest proposition would be Corbyn as PM and Trump as President.
An EU that will then start looking east.
Corbyn would be eaten alive.

Bogwhoppit

We should buy Corbyn a £10 BHS voucher.