Did Corbyn intentionally not support Remain properly, or is he not very good at politics?

Bogwhoppit

Student Politics in my uni was a bag of cheese and onion crisps, half a bitter and a quick read through the gig guide.

quarky

UnclePsychosis said:

quarky said:

UnclePsychosis said:

Do you know what the word *everywhere* means? I'll give you a clue, it includes Scotland.

So no country should be doing what is best for it's people? When countries like Poland put the interests of their people first when they joined the EU for their benefit, that was wrong too?

I like the implication that only nationalists want what's best for their country.

Fair point.

It just seems to be thrown around a lot here with the insinuation that everyone who voted out is a nationalist, or that the English shouldn't have voted out to accommodation the Scottish (nationalists?).

siremoon

I think what the EEC was when we went in was a very good concept built on trade and commerce.  What it became as the EU is more centralised, dictatorial and hijacked by federalists hell bent on diminishing national identities and influence.  All this "make an example of the UK to discourage the rest" is appalling imo.  What they are saying is that once you're in you can never leave.  That doesn't sound to me like an organisation that has a bright future if it feels it has to force its members to stay.

UnclePsychosis

quarky said:

UnclePsychosis said:

quarky said:

UnclePsychosis said:

Do you know what the word *everywhere* means? I'll give you a clue, it includes Scotland.

So no country should be doing what is best for it's people? When countries like Poland put the interests of their people first when they joined the EU for their benefit, that was wrong too?

I like the implication that only nationalists want what's best for their country.

Fair point.

It just seems to be thrown around a lot here with the insinuation that everyone who voted out is a nationalist, or that the English shouldn't have voted out to accommodation the Scottish (nationalists?).

I think you've misunderstood what people were saying about Remain/Scotland/Ireland.

It wasn't that you should vote Remain to appease anyone,  it was that all these people metaphorically marching up and down saying "we have to protect the UK! save the UK! we want our UK back!" seemed to be missing the point that their way of "saving" the UK would in fact lead to a far more imminent demise than anything the EU could do. You can't break something in to three separate pieces and then claim you've saved it. That's just silly.

ToneControl

UnclePsychosis said:

quarky said:

It just seems to be thrown around a lot here with the insinuation that everyone who voted out is a nationalist, or that the English shouldn't have voted out to accommodation the Scottish (nationalists?).

I think you've misunderstood what people were saying about Remain/Scotland/Ireland.

It wasn't that you should vote Remain to appease anyone,  it was that all these people metaphorically marching up and down saying "we have to protect the UK! save the UK! we want our UK back!" seemed to be missing the point that their way of "saving" the UK would in fact lead to a far more imminent demise than anything the EU could do. You can't break something in to three separate pieces and then claim you've saved it. That's just silly.

how do you know what the leavers want for Scotland?

I voted Leave, and I'm happy to see Scotland leave the UK

UnclePsychosis

ToneControl;1131605" said:

UnclePsychosis said:



quarky said:





It just seems to be thrown around a lot here with the insinuation that everyone who voted out is a nationalist, or that the English shouldn't have voted out to accommodation the Scottish (nationalists?).










I think you've misunderstood what people were saying about Remain/Scotland/Ireland. It wasn't that you should vote Remain to appease anyone,  it was that all these people metaphorically marching up and down saying "we have to protect the UK! save the UK! we want our UK back!" seemed to be missing the point that their way of "saving" the UK would in fact lead to a far more imminent demise than anything the EU could do. You can't break something in to three separate pieces and then claim you've saved it. That's just silly.










how do you know what the leavers want for Scotland?I voted Leave, and I'm happy to see Scotland leave the UK

ToneControl;1131605" said:

UnclePsychosis said:



quarky said:





It just seems to be thrown around a lot here with the insinuation that everyone who voted out is a nationalist, or that the English shouldn't have voted out to accommodation the Scottish (nationalists?).










I think you've misunderstood what people were saying about Remain/Scotland/Ireland. It wasn't that you should vote Remain to appease anyone,  it was that all these people metaphorically marching up and down saying "we have to protect the UK! save the UK! we want our UK back!" seemed to be missing the point that their way of "saving" the UK would in fact lead to a far more imminent demise than anything the EU could do. You can't break something in to three separate pieces and then claim you've saved it. That's just silly.










how do you know what the leavers want for Scotland?I voted Leave, and I'm happy to see Scotland leave the UK

Good for you.

Do you not think it's a bit much, though, to claim to be all about "protecting the UK" (as lots of Leavers did) when doing so will probably lead to the UK losing 1/3rd of its landmass, 10% of its population, and one of the partner members of the union? The UK as is will cease to exist. Maybe I'm crazy but that's a very odd way to protect something.

ToneControl

UnclePsychosis said:

ToneControl;1131605" said:

UnclePsychosis said:

how do you know what the leavers want for Scotland?I voted Leave, and I'm happy to see Scotland leave the UK

Good for you.

Do you not think it's a bit much, though, to claim to be all about "protecting the UK" (as lots of Leavers did) when doing so will probably lead to the UK losing 1/3rd of its landmass, 10% of its population, and one of the partner members of the union? The UK as is will cease to exist. Maybe I'm crazy but that's a very odd way to protect something.

protecting the citizens who don't want to be in the EU.

If the Scots want something different, fair enough. Personally I think they'd be ill advised.

TTony

Not often I find myself agreeing strongly with "Dave", but watching this is worth 17 seconds of anyone's time ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36663181

quarky

I think it would be bad for both parties in some ways if Scotland went, especially if Scotland end up adopting the Euro (although I can see the EU doing a "pity" deal to spare Scotland the Euro while giving the rest of the UK the finger). But it is a choice for Scotland, and I would respect whatever choice they made. But I wouldn't want to see them go.

ToneControl

iseverynamegone said:

Corbyn is about the only honest politician we have.

do you still believe this after recent events?

Heartfeltdawn

ToneControl said:

iseverynamegone said:

Corbyn is about the only honest politician we have.

do you still believe this after recent events?

Recent events do make me question his honesty as much as I question the slightly obsessive nature of some people regarding Corbyn. 

lloyd

Heartfeltdawn said:

ToneControl said:

iseverynamegone said:

Corbyn is about the only honest politician we have.

do you still believe this after recent events?

Recent events do make me question his honesty as much as I question the slightly obsessive nature of some people regarding Corbyn. 

My issue with him is that he must clearly see that he has zero chance of uniting his MP's into an effective opposition and as such, if he was so principled he'd fall on his sword and get behind someone that was left leaning but stood a chance of uniting both the parliamentary and national Labour party.

One things for certain is that his Labour party doesn't offer a viable alternative to the Conservatives and will lose the next election, could see them losing with anyone at the helm, but it will be a disaster if he is.

He's reduced the Labour party to a protest one, shouting from the sidelines, he'd shit himself if he got into power and realise that his ideals and principles would quickly have to be diluted as there's only so much money in the kitty.

I don't think he's all that principled either, the scruffy clothes, hair and chipped paint on the window of his house are as much of a calculated image as Cameron's £1000 hair cuts and his wife's image consultant.

ToneControl

Heartfeltdawn said:

ToneControl said:

iseverynamegone said:

Corbyn is about the only honest politician we have.

do you still believe this after recent events?

Recent events do make me question his honesty as much as I question the slightly obsessive nature of some people regarding Corbyn. 

not sure who  you mean,
but for my part I'm obsessed with the  destruction of the labour party,
which is being facilitated by a man I am repeatedly told is "not dishonest like all the other politicians"

Evilmags

One hopes he learns to take train seats instead of spin and lie. That was sun MandlesonIan 

digitalscream

lloyd said:

I don't think he's all that principled either, the scruffy clothes, hair and chipped paint on the window of his house are as much of a calculated image as Cameron's £1000 hair cuts and his wife's image consultant.

This is something I plain don't get at all. Appearing scruffy and frugal doesn't make anybody more principled than anybody else. Besides...when a politician earns £125k/year like he does, I find it hard to believe that their appearance is anything but a conscious decision.

Heartfeltdawn

digitalscream said:

lloyd said:

I don't think he's all that principled either, the scruffy clothes, hair and chipped paint on the window of his house are as much of a calculated image as Cameron's £1000 hair cuts and his wife's image consultant.

This is something I plain don't get at all. Appearing scruffy and frugal doesn't make anybody more principled than anybody else. 

And wearing a suit and tie doesn't make one more professional but there are many who say it does.  

lloyd

Heartfeltdawn said:

digitalscream said:

lloyd said:

I don't think he's all that principled either, the scruffy clothes, hair and chipped paint on the window of his house are as much of a calculated image as Cameron's £1000 hair cuts and his wife's image consultant.

This is something I plain don't get at all. Appearing scruffy and frugal doesn't make anybody more principled than anybody else. 

And wearing a suit and tie doesn't make one more professional but there are many who say it does.  

There's conventions to uphold though isn't there?

A butcher doesn't need to wear white, or check pants or even have an apron, but they do because that's what butchers do.

By the same token, dressing formally and neatly for certain jobs is something that should be followed, an MP is one of those jobs IMO, especially someone looking to be the leader of a country.

Is he going to go to the Remembrance Day gatherings with all the other dignitaries with gravy down last decades suit? It's about a show of respect.

And I'm a scruffy cunt at the best of times, but an MP I am not.

digitalscream

Heartfeltdawn said:

digitalscream said:

lloyd said:

I don't think he's all that principled either, the scruffy clothes, hair and chipped paint on the window of his house are as much of a calculated image as Cameron's £1000 hair cuts and his wife's image consultant.

This is something I plain don't get at all. Appearing scruffy and frugal doesn't make anybody more principled than anybody else. 

And wearing a suit and tie doesn't make one more professional but there are many who say it does.  

Thus proving the point that the overwhelming likelihood is that his relative scruffiness isn't an accident, particularly since his take-home is in the region of £6,300 a month (assuming no entitlements or dodgy tricks). Just a "regular guy"? Nah, not likely. He hasn't seen anything less than double the average wage since he became an MP in the early 80s.

UnclePsychosis

Heartfeltdawn said:

digitalscream said:

lloyd said:

I don't think he's all that principled either, the scruffy clothes, hair and chipped paint on the window of his house are as much of a calculated image as Cameron's £1000 hair cuts and his wife's image consultant.

This is something I plain don't get at all. Appearing scruffy and frugal doesn't make anybody more principled than anybody else. 

And wearing a suit and tie doesn't make one more professional but there are many who say it does.  

You're right, but there are many people to whom appearance matters a great deal. Many of whom come from other countries and cultures---and being PM (which is a role to which Corbyn supposedly aspires) is a role in which he would be expected to interact with these people.

Evilmags

Corbyn's suit and ties are such a bad joke. He'd be told to go home in most professional offices for turning up like that. He not even fat so it's pretty easy to get one without a foot wide chav gap.