Did Corbyn intentionally not support Remain properly, or is he not very good at politics?

Nitefly

They've changed the numbers slightly - now saying 172 - 40.  

stickyfiddle

Heartfeltdawn said:

stickyfiddle said:

You don't need to get all of those though. You need to get the majority of the floating voters. Those who weren't brought up to always vote for "us" rather than "them", middle class working people who generally are socially liberal but economically conservative. It's an EXTREMELY hard line to follow, and one the Lib Dems were actually doing very well at until they formed the coalition, which was their downfall. 

I'm not saying you need all of them. It's a list of who does support them NOW. It was clear in 2015 that they'd lost some of that traditional backing. An election next year in the wake of the referendum may see them lose more backing from that sector. Trade Unions are declining in membership as well. If you're going to replace those voters from those two sectors with the cosmopolitan sector, then you will strengthen in cities where you are already strong and face possibly losing out in other areas and lowering your impact across the whole country. 

I wonder if the answer is a Labour party based around unions and traditional voters happy to go into coalition with a socially liberal/economically conservative group. 

Ah, sorry. I'm with you! Agree entirely.

I've already suggested ( in the real world, not here) that the best answer may well be for the liberal end of the Tories to join up with the economically competent end of the Labour party and grab the 17.5 remaining Lib Dems and make a new constitutionally-centrist party. I'd probably vote for that.

Heartfeltdawn

stickyfiddle said:

Ah, sorry. I'm with you! Agree entirely.

I've already suggested ( in the real world, not here) that the best answer may well be for the liberal end of the Tories to join up with the economically competent end of the Labour party and grab the 17.5 remaining Lib Dems and make a new constitutionally-centrist party. I'd probably vote for that.

That's the way forward. Form that and we could have six decent vote sharing parties for a 2020 election. It's a dreadful situation that Labour find themselves in. At some point they have to decide what to do because they're floundering. I have no idea what Labour stand for. This was sadi by some of the election agents I talked to during the May elections who were organising the successful Marvin Rees campaign here in Bristol. There's still nothing on the website that says what Corbyn Labour stand for. 

digitalscream

Nitefly said:

Vote of no confidence - backed by 176 to 44:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36647458

Surely he can't stay on?

*edit to include beeb link.

I love this. We have a disastrous non-binding referendum which splits the country apart and causes political chaos, so the Labour party decide they're going to fix all their problems by having a non-binding vote.

You couldn't make it up.

chillidoggy

ICBM said:

chillidoggy said:

How can you say Corbyn isn't a 'career politician'? He's been a politician since the early 70's, and has never had a proper job in his entire life*.

Because he's never treated it as a career in the sense of a path for advancement - just as exactly... a job. I'm sure he never foresaw leading the party, at least not at any time after Kinnock became leader and the party moved away from him politically. He seems to have almost casually allowed himself to be put forward last year, and I'm sure never thought he would win until the campaign got going.

He's certainly never tried to ingratiate himself with any of the former leaders, never tried to climb the party ladder, never held even the most junior office. That may be one of the reasons it's all going wrong - he just doesn't know how all that works.

And he still doesn't.

How long will he hang on? Wonder if the bookies are giving odds.

ICBM

I think the party will split if he doesn't stand down - possibly very soon. Or even if he does and is re-elected. The bulk of the MPs and a sizeable proportion of the membership will form a new 'Social Democratic Party' (I wonder if that name could be re-used?) and Corbyn will be left leading an irrelevant left-wing Labour Party.

Which for me is sad, because it will move the more electable of the two to the right rather than the left - but on the other hand good, because it will eventually produce an electable party to the left of the Tories, which currently the Lib Dems are not (electable, that is).

We badly need a credible opposition party. Actually, I'll re-phrase that… we badly need a credible party.

ToneControl

Snap said:

Corbyn was voted in by a few hundred thousand party members. You can't say he's popular with people who voted labour at all. How many voted Labour at last election? 9 1/2 million or so?

Corbyn got (about) 60% of the vote out of of about 550,000 members - so about 330,000 votes.

Very different measures.

He's stuffed. What he needs now is some humility and perspective and to realise that he is damaging his party regardless of what the membership thinks. Popularity with the party members, the public and the PLP are all different things.

The Labour Party at the moment is becoming more and more like Animal Farm by the day.

yes,, 330k people who paid £3 each to vote - could all just been students

could have been tories sabotaging the vote too

ToneControl

Evilmags said:

Corbyn got EE at A level at a well to do Grammer school. He is not very bright.

The peak of the baby boom year A levels was 1983

obviously he's a lot older, but the grade inflation from 1983 up to now is about 2 grades

Therefore EE in 1983 would be CC now

I'm not sure if 1966 would have been harder, but that's a crap score for a grammar school

Anyway, anyone who has worked with bright people: top professionals, CxOs, professors will have instantly recognised that Corbyn is thick

ToneControl

ICBM said:

I think the party will split if he doesn't stand down - possibly very soon. Or even if he does and is re-elected. The bulk of the MPs and a sizeable proportion of the membership will form a new 'Social Democratic Party' (I wonder if that name could be re-used?) and Corbyn will be left leading an irrelevant left-wing Labour Party.

Which for me is sad, because it will move the more electable of the two to the right rather than the left - but on the other hand good, because it will eventually produce an electable party to the left of the Tories, which currently the Lib Dems are not (electable, that is).

We badly need a credible opposition party. Actually, I'll re-phrase that… we badly need a credible party.

I agree 

It would however, be a good thing to have a left-wing party free of the unions and hard-left

I supposed the SNP is that (or pretending to be that)

Myranda

172 to 40 in favour of Corbyn leaving.

Wow. 

Just Wow.

Still, he's decided that in spite of having a party that wants him there the size of the SNP, with a second labour party more than 4 times larger, he wont step down.

And yes... he's chosen by the labour members, but when more than 80% of the party wont listen to you, what possible govenence is he going to be capable of?!

TTony

ICBM said:

I think the party will split if he doesn't stand down - possibly very soon. Or even if he does and is re-elected. The bulk of the MPs and a sizeable proportion of the membership will form a new 'Social Democratic Party' (I wonder if that name could be re-used?) and Corbyn will be left leading an irrelevant left-wing Labour Party.

I agree.

The obstacle to that is where ownership of the Labour party funds & machinery lies.  I'd imagine (but don't know) that if 170-odd MPs left the Labour party, they'd also leave behind all the funds (or debts), the membership, the local organisations, et al, so would have to start with a very blank piece of paper.

That's going to take some time.

It really is the old hard-left's opportunity, maybe their last, to run a mainstream political party.  Ever since Foot left in the mid 80s, they've been out of power and largely out of influence.  The unions have finally got their man into the position, and I can't believe that they're just going to give it up now.  It's quite possibly existentialist for them, so nothing to lose.  And you never want to pick a fight with someone who's got nothing to lose ...

I don't remember anything quite like it in UK politics.  Mostly people have the good grace to walk away.

Chalky

Myranda;1130239" said:

172 to 40 in favour of Corbyn leaving.

Wow. 

Just Wow.

Still, he's decided that in spite of having a party that wants him there the size of the SNP, with a second labour party more than 4 times larger, he wont step down.

And yes... he's chosen by the labour members, but when more than 80% of the party wont listen to you, what possible govenence is he going to be capable of?!

I can hear lots of folks on here saying "told you so".

Evilmags

Myranda said:

172 to 40 in favour of Corbyn leaving.

Wow. 

Just Wow.

Still, he's decided that in spite of having a party that wants him there the size of the SNP, with a second labour party more than 4 times larger, he wont step down.

And yes... he's chosen by the labour members, but when more than 80% of the party wont listen to you, what possible govenence is he going to be capable of?!

This was so obviously going to happen. Loads of Labour MPs are terrified of losing their majorities at the next election, and know he is intellectually incapable of leading them towards it. A lot more people voted for 170 labour MPs than for Jeremy Corbyn. The whole shambles would be funny were they not meant to be the official opposition. 

Myranda

Chalky said:

Myranda;1130239" said:

172 to 40 in favour of Corbyn leaving.

Wow. 

Just Wow.

Still, he's decided that in spite of having a party that wants him there the size of the SNP, with a second labour party more than 4 times larger, he wont step down.

And yes... he's chosen by the labour members, but when more than 80% of the party wont listen to you, what possible govenence is he going to be capable of?!

I can hear lots of folks on here saying "told you so".

Whichever side of the fence people were on for this vote, people took to the polling booths in numbers not seen in a very long time... and the most Corbyn could do was to wear a badge with the EU flag on it... Campaign for it, campaign against it... but as the leader of the second largest party in the country campaign for SOMETHING. 

If he felt that Leave and Remain campaigns were full of BS, then step up and talk truths to the people... but sitting at home looking at Manhole-cover-Quarterly is not what the leader of a political party should do.

Cameron ballsed it up by doing a crap job of campaigning for remain, and he quit... I'd like it if he'd stayed long enough to actually do something about the mess he made, but... he f***ed it up and quit... Corbyn couldn't even summon the will to try and fail... so why bother staying?

He's saying he's got a clear mandate of 60% of Labour members - I wonder how many who voted for him last time STILL think he's their best hope (and conversely how many of the other 40% now think he is the man for the job)

scrumhalf

Well, Corbyn's certainly got himself in a pickle.

Perhaps he should get some advice from his "friends in Hamas and Hezbollah". They know how to deal with dissenters.

Skipped

I love Corbyn the man.

But there is stubborn. And then there is stubborn. The need to oppose UKIP at the next GE is much more important than any consideration at this moment.
I don't know how this change will happen. Can we get a million new £3 members who are terrified about the current state of the country??

Evilmags

To be fair to Cameron he delivered as many votes as could reasonably be expected. It was the Labour voters deserting them and following the Out campaign that swung the referendum in favour of out. Corbyn is so inconsistent intellectually that he had no sway at all with most people beyond his clique of bitter, hard left dinosaurs. 

chillidoggy

ICBM said:

I think the party will split if he doesn't stand down - possibly very soon. Or even if he does and is re-elected. The bulk of the MPs and a sizeable proportion of the membership will form a new 'Social Democratic Party' (I wonder if that name could be re-used?) and Corbyn will be left leading an irrelevant left-wing Labour Party.

Which for me is sad, because it will move the more electable of the two to the right rather than the left - but on the other hand good, because it will eventually produce an electable party to the left of the Tories, which currently the Lib Dems are not (electable, that is).

We badly need a credible opposition party. Actually, I'll re-phrase that… we badly need a credible party.

It's OK.

It's time to let him go.

Heartfeltdawn

ToneControl said:

Evilmags said:

Corbyn got EE at A level at a well to do Grammer school. He is not very bright.

The peak of the baby boom year A levels was 1983

obviously he's a lot older, but the grade inflation from 1983 up to now is about 2 grades

Therefore EE in 1983 would be CC now

I'm not sure if 1966 would have been harder, but that's a crap score for a grammar school

Anyway, anyone who has worked with bright people: top professionals, CxOs, professors will have instantly recognised that Corbyn is thick

You could say exactly the same about me if you went by my A level grades. Probably quite a few others in this forum. Grades are not the sole means of judging intellect. By all means damn him for being a pissweak leader but 'low grades = dumb' is a statement I dislike. 

Heartfeltdawn

Evilmags said:

To be fair to Cameron he delivered as many votes as could reasonably be expected. It was the Labour voters deserting them and following the Out campaign that swung the referendum in favour of out. Corbyn is so inconsistent intellectually that he had no sway at all with most people beyond his clique of bitter, hard left dinosaurs. 

And the newer Corbyn backers who aren't hammer and sickle waving followers of the little red book. They like the notion of socialism, they aren't down to calling everyone 'comrade' as you have with the Young Communist League (perversely I mgiht be going on their summer camp this year for free purely as a Theroux style adventure). The message they get from him is more of a happy clappy socialism than one that involves licking statues of Marx and Lenin. 

It was quite strange watching some of them when Corbyn came up to Bristol to congratulate thew new mayor on his victory. The real hard left bunch from Tusc and a couple of the independents had a look of absject hatred on their face. Some of the students looked on in awe but the Labour campaign team looked like he'd gatecrashed their event and was taking up their efforts. Bristol is a Labour city, no question of that, but if a place like this isn't one that celebrates Corbyn, then those places left behind in the North especially are never going to welcome him.