Brexit legal challenge.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Chalky said:

Yet again you are just suggesting vote-rigging in favour of Remain....

No, I am suggesting requiring an actual democratic mandate for Leave.

And if the roles were reversed? Had the leave vote won .. you'd be singing a different tune were the Brexit crowd moaning.

littlegreenman

StanleyAccrington said:

Sounds like a bit of a fudge to me. I thought that Dave Cam said something in the line of 'whatever the outcome, we will carry out the wishes of the people. Suppose we will have to wait and see what decision of parliament is in the best interest for us!!!!

It was what we all knew was the process was, or at least should have.

Dave did, and then ran away, as did Boris. Which leaves us where we are now. And why we need a law firm looking on to ensure that whatever is decided next is done correctly and legally under UK constitutional law.

Fretwired

littlegreenman said:

StanleyAccrington said:

Sounds like a bit of a fudge to me. I thought that Dave Cam said something in the line of 'whatever the outcome, we will carry out the wishes of the people. Suppose we will have to wait and see what decision of parliament is in the best interest for us!!!!

It was what we all knew was the process was, or at least should have.

Dave did, and then ran away, as did Boris. Which leaves us where we are now. And why we need a law firm looking on to ensure that whatever is decided next is done correctly and legally under UK constitutional law.

Disagree - Dave lost - he had to go. Boris had no support he couldn't stand. The law firm is only interested in promoting itself. Parliament ignores the will of the people at its peril.

littlegreenman

Fretwired said:

littlegreenman said:

StanleyAccrington said:

Sounds like a bit of a fudge to me. I thought that Dave Cam said something in the line of 'whatever the outcome, we will carry out the wishes of the people. Suppose we will have to wait and see what decision of parliament is in the best interest for us!!!!

It was what we all knew was the process was, or at least should have.

Dave did, and then ran away, as did Boris. Which leaves us where we are now. And why we need a law firm looking on to ensure that whatever is decided next is done correctly and legally under UK constitutional law.

Disagree - Dave lost - he had to go. Boris had no support he couldn't stand. The law firm is only interested in promoting itself. Parliament ignores the will of the people at its peril.

As I previously said, I fully expect Parliament to cede to the will of the people, but we need to ensure that a proper debate and vote is carried out so that Article 50 is invoked correctly and legally.

Any PM that pushes it through without the appropriate, and necessary, Act of Parliament following a debate and vote is acting unlawfully.

Clarky

ThorpyFX said:

making a protest vote against the EU because you don't like the UK government is childish beyond belief and massively reckless.

this is the bit that is doing my head in..

sure.. there are leave voters that did so based on what they think is for the best..

that I can accept and totally respect

but the protest vote was not a leave vote, it was a fk you vote

if this protest vote was big enough, it will have skewed the outcome in favour of leaving

the problem is that we don't know if the protest vote was in the thousands or in the millions

so.. if for example the protest vote was several million, the leave outcome does not represent the will of the people

it represents a large minority that had a good think and made a reasoned decision to leave

a small minority said fk the govt and voted leave

the majority that voted to remain was out voted by the combined leave results..

of course I doubt we'll ever find out if the fk you result was actually big enough to make a difference, but the fact that it happened at all means that I cannot find myself trusting the outcome of this referendum..

it feels to me that a very serious and difficult question, with far reaching implications was hijacked by a bunch of dickheads..

if the final result without those dickheads was still to leave, I'd find it a lot easier to respect as being the genuine will of most of the people of the UK even thought it'd actually be even closer with their votes removed..

it all feels somehow tainted to me 

Fretwired

littlegreenman said:

Any PM that pushes it through without the appropriate, and necessary, Act of Parliament following a debate and vote is acting unlawfully.

Evidence please.

Clarky

ThorpyFX said:

Brize said:

ThorpyFX said:

We the general public cannot be trusted to understand and analyse the facts.

Speak for yourself. The vast majority of the public support assisted dying, and yet MPs voted against it.

I don't know why i have to clarify this... but here you go. We as a nation voted for a prestigious exploration ship to be called Boaty Mcboatface! I was not speaking for you or criticising your intellect, i wasn't even saying i couldn't understand the facts, I was applying a generalisation to the public at large which was pretty clear.

 It says it all when as a country have a potentially life changing vote and 28% don't even turn up. So no, i don't believe as a nation we can be trusted to vote on a subject so important.

<script type="text/javascript" src="safari-extension://com.ebay.safari.myebaymanager-QYHMMGCMJR/37d4d046/background/helpers/prefilterHelper.js"></script>

Boaty Mcboatface is an awesome name

Clarky

Emp_Fab said:

How about this then.... if, for some bizarre reason, we had a referendum on whether we should nuke Russia, and the result came back YES, by 52% to 48% - should the government actually launch the missiles ?  Yes, it was idiotic to hold the referendum in the first place, but a vote is a vote…

can we name the missiles?

like Nukey McNukeface?

Fretwired

Clarky said:

ThorpyFX said:

Brize said:

ThorpyFX said:

We the general public cannot be trusted to understand and analyse the facts.

Speak for yourself. The vast majority of the public support assisted dying, and yet MPs voted against it.

I don't know why i have to clarify this... but here you go. We as a nation voted for a prestigious exploration ship to be called Boaty Mcboatface! I was not speaking for you or criticising your intellect, i wasn't even saying i couldn't understand the facts, I was applying a generalisation to the public at large which was pretty clear.

 It says it all when as a country have a potentially life changing vote and 28% don't even turn up. So no, i don't believe as a nation we can be trusted to vote on a subject so important.

<script type="text/javascript" src="safari-extension://com.ebay.safari.myebaymanager-QYHMMGCMJR/37d4d046/background/helpers/prefilterHelper.js"></script>

Boaty Mcboatface is an awesome name

Agreed .. whilst the ship didn't get the name isn't the underwater sub named Boaty McBoatface?

Clarky

StanleyAccrington said:

Sounds like a bit of a fudge to me. I thought that Dave Cam said something in the line of 'whatever the outcome, we will carry out the wishes of the people. Suppose we will have to wait and see what decision of parliament is in the best interest for us!!!!

to be honest, I think Dave's comment was spoken in the same way as Boris's "well give the £350m a week back to the NHS" [or whatever it was that he spouted..

because Dave, like Boris did not expect leave to win

the leave outcome took absolutely everyone by surprise on all sides

although I've made no secret that I was a Remain voter, and still hope that somehow the UK will remain in an EU that will be a Juncker Free Zone and start thinking about a less federal future [pie in the sky I know]…

I think the leave vote did one seriously good thing…

it screamed to the top bods.. "for fk sake listen to us lot!!!"

Fretwired

Clarky said:

Emp_Fab said:

How about this then.... if, for some bizarre reason, we had a referendum on whether we should nuke Russia, and the result came back YES, by 52% to 48% - should the government actually launch the missiles ?  Yes, it was idiotic to hold the referendum in the first place, but a vote is a vote…

can we name the missiles?

like Nukey McNukeface?

I'd rather get rid of them.

holnrew

Fretwired;1137313" said:

Clarky said:



Emp_Fab said:

How about this then.... if, for some bizarre reason, we had a referendum on whether we should nuke Russia, and the result came back YES, by 52% to 48% - should the government actually launch the missiles ?  Yes, it was idiotic to hold the referendum in the first place, but a vote is a vote…





can we name the missiles?like Nukey McNukeface?





I'd rather get rid of them.

Detonating them is one way to do that. Kind of similar to voting leave when you just wanted to stick two fingers up at Cameron.(not you personally)

skankdelvar

Lest anyone be mistaken in thinking Mishcon De Reya are making these noises in the interests of democracy or - perhaps - on behalf of the 'moral minority' we should note the very second line of their own press release:

'The case is being brought by leading law firm, Mishcon de Reya, on behalf of a group of clients'. 

But who might those clients be, they who can afford the £'000s per hour fees of this big beast of the legal world? A swift glance reveals the following 'prestigious' names:

American Express, Capita Group, Dell, DHL, Euromoney Publications, Foxtons, HP (Hewlett Packard), Lonrho, Matterhorn Capital, Microsoft, Peugeot, Pfizer, Prada and - er - Speedo.

Which of these capitalist behemoths are splashing out gazillions in order that m'learned friends can secure the 'right' result for them? And are they really doing it because they care deeply about 'protecting the democratic rights of the majority who - cough  - didn't vote out'? 

Or because it suits their business plans and profit forecasts?

We may speculate. Those who wish to hop into bed with the Boss Class the better to shore up their own pitiful sense of grievance can go right ahead. Me, I'll be manning the barricades with the proletariat.

Death to the class traitors and their identity politics.

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

Evidence please.

I would refer to these two articles:

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/06/27/nick-barber-tom-hickman-and-jeff-king-pulling-the-article-50-trigger-parliaments-indispensable-role/

https://publiclawforeveryone.com/2016/06/30/brexit-on-why-as-a-matter-of-law-triggering-article-50-does-not-require-parliament-to-legislate/

The greatest thing to come from both is that both agree that extricating ourselves from Europe will be a long long process. 

Clarky

Fretwired said:

Clarky said:

ThorpyFX said:

Brize said:

ThorpyFX said:

We the general public cannot be trusted to understand and analyse the facts.

Speak for yourself. The vast majority of the public support assisted dying, and yet MPs voted against it.

I don't know why i have to clarify this... but here you go. We as a nation voted for a prestigious exploration ship to be called Boaty Mcboatface! I was not speaking for you or criticising your intellect, i wasn't even saying i couldn't understand the facts, I was applying a generalisation to the public at large which was pretty clear.

 It says it all when as a country have a potentially life changing vote and 28% don't even turn up. So no, i don't believe as a nation we can be trusted to vote on a subject so important.

<script type="text/javascript" src="safari-extension://com.ebay.safari.myebaymanager-QYHMMGCMJR/37d4d046/background/helpers/prefilterHelper.js"></script>

Boaty Mcboatface is an awesome name

Agreed .. whilst the ship didn't get the name isn't the underwater sub named Boaty McBoatface?

I need to conduct further research on this important matter

Clarky

holnrew said:

Fretwired;1137313" said:

Clarky said:



Emp_Fab said:

How about this then.... if, for some bizarre reason, we had a referendum on whether we should nuke Russia, and the result came back YES, by 52% to 48% - should the government actually launch the missiles ?  Yes, it was idiotic to hold the referendum in the first place, but a vote is a vote…





can we name the missiles?like Nukey McNukeface?





I'd rather get rid of them.

Detonating them is one way to do that. Kind of similar to voting leave when you just wanted to stick two fingers up at Cameron.(not you personally)

we should have a referendum regarding target selection

my vote is Belgium

not because of the EU HQ etc

but because you cannot trust any nation that makes strawberry beer

Heartfeltdawn

skankdelvar said:

We may speculate. Those who wish to hop into bed with the Boss Class the better to shore up their own pitiful sense of grievance can go right ahead. Me, I'll be manning the barricades with the proletariat.

Death to the class traitors and their identity politics.

WOuld that be the proles who followed the words of Murdoch, Rothermere, Desmond, and Barclay et al? Don't they count as corporate folk? 

skankdelvar

Heartfeltdawn said:

skankdelvar said:

We may speculate. Those who wish to hop into bed with the Boss Class the better to shore up their own pitiful sense of grievance can go right ahead. Me, I'll be manning the barricades with the proletariat.

Death to the class traitors and their identity politics.

And confused glances to folk like you who seem to put out this view that only corporate scum are interested in challenging Brexit and that anyone in favour of leaving Europe has no more business acumen or interest than a WI lady selling cake on a Tuesday in Neasden. Most puzzling. 

Pray don't be confused. You know that I enjoy a bit of gentle teasing.

It should therefore come as no surprise that I might mischievously juxtapose anguished pleas for 'democracy' with the steely determination of the tyrant multinationals to protect their bottom line. 

In any case, it is profoundly encouraging that so many of the 'concerned, principled and decent' people are now embracing fraternal relations with the iron-booted titans of commerce and banking. 

Even if their joint cause is misguided, illiberal, illogical and self-serving it's good that old enemies can come together. It's like a big social melting pot, really. 

Perhaps they'll start making babies.

Heartfeltdawn

skankdelvar said:

Pray don't be confused. You know that I enjoy a bit of gentle teasing.

Naturally but I thought that was reserved at this hour for Molly, the buxom and politically neutral barmaid at the Crooked Raven over at Poulshot. 

You are quite right on the odd alliances. The RMT and SWP were both there at Corbyn's little gathering after the wave of resignations. Both were keeping very quiet about their backing of the Leave campaign. Perhaps Jeremy would like to explain to his loyal young following how at least two of his backers were against the Europeans. 

And if you believe the Sun, our most famous and undermocratic lady was firmly behind bodging out of Europe so we have a spread from the proliest prole to the grandest old bird. Perhaps Jez and Betty could discuss that over tea and crumpets. 

skankdelvar

Heartfeltdawn said:

skankdelvar said:

Pray don't be confused. You know that I enjoy a bit of gentle teasing.

Naturally but I thought that was reserved at this hour for Molly, the buxom and politically neutral barmaid at the Crooked Raven over at Poulshot. 

Ah, but I drink at the Frog and Trussrod these days. Anyway, those Mishcon De Reya clients...

The largest shareholder in the aforementioned Euromoney Publications is DMGT (Daily Mail and General Trust). And who is Euromoney's co-president?

Step forward Daily Fail owner and Mishcon client Jonathan Harmsworth, 4th Viscount Rothermere. And which newspaper is desperately trying to arrest the upward progress of Brexiteer Tory leadership challenger Mrs Andrea Leadsom?

Step forward, the Daily Mail, object of scorn for right-thinking people everywhere.

The irony is piquant. Britain's concerned liberals are now cheering on the efforts of the Daily Mail, big business and a raft of smarmy, overpaid lawyers to thwart the will of the 'unheard little people'.

Strange times, indeed.