Original 58 and 54 compared to replicas

p90fool

I really have no axe to grind and think huge companies like Gibson can look after their own copyright issues, but wading into a guitar forum saying your illegal fakes "crap all over Gibson" is bound to rub people up the wrong way. 

I'm not going to get into the fake vs replica argument for the simple reason that we all know the the difference between the two is about three grand. 

Be proud of what you build and put your name on it, stop skulking around like some seedy forger. 

Danielsguitars

O

Sassafras

Chibsons are getting more and more accurate these days.

Voxman

customkits said:

There's a whole skulking section on mlp for all things replica related

On the gibson thing something is wrong imo If I'm making a guitar for a guy in Singapore because he has something like 11 or 12 r8's and r9's and he said only a couple are any good
He also had a Bartlett and hrd still gor a yaron plus a conversion
Because he is in Singapore he can't find loads to look at, now he has to sell them all, that is not good enough imo

There's plenty more like that

Tone and feel are very personal and it might be that another discerning player might prefer different R8/9's that this guy had and might not have picked out his 2-3 favourites.  So this doesn't mean that the other R8/9's sound 'bad', just that they don't suit him. BTW - if he doesn't want them, he can send them to me & I'd be happy to take them off his hands!

All I do know is that before I decide to spend (possibly) £5k on a guitar, I'm going to take my time and try to play as many different LP's that I can - including any replicas I can find, but also take my LP Custom with me as a 'base line' because every guitar will sound different when played through different amps.  In an ideal world I'd like to hear them all through the same amp too but that's harder to control & taking one of my own amps isn't likely to be practical.  I also haven't ruled out a second-hand stock LP eg a 70's one, or even a stock new one - and I'll definitely be comparing stock with re-issues.  

At the end of the day, and as has been said here several times and quite rightly so, a good guitar is a good guitar.  But what is considered a good guitar can vary from person to person. 

Danielsguitars

O

peteri

I really appreciate you sharing this experience - thank you for that.

I think a number of people (to be honest including myself) - don't think it needs the Gibson bashing element.

Full disclosure - I've owned a number of Gibsons, specifically - a couple of Studios (both weight and non weight relieved), a late 90's (non weight relieved from memory) Standard, and currently own (and will never sell) what is the perfect Les Paul for me - a 72 Custom.

This year I have played, in depth - not just shop plinking:

59 Les Paul Jr, 61 Les Paul Jr (SG), 66 SG Jr, 69 Les Paul Deluxe, 73 Les Paul Deluxe, Tom Murphy R7, 1980 Custom

Point of the above, I'm not claiming divine ears or fingers - but I've played a few recently (I've got into buying guitars again!).

Of the above 'vintage' ones - the 59 Jr and both deluxes, I wouldn't have paid firewood values for them. I just didn't like them - I couldn't understand the price, or why anyone would buy them.

The R7 and 1980 custom I could appreciate but they weren't for me.

Through playing the above, I've realised - I'm sensitive to two things - the guitar resonance (turns out that's very important to me, surprised myself) - I like quite a trebly resonance. And the neck shoulder - I don't have the biggest hands, and that shoulder is all important.

But I wouldn't claim non of the above were bad guitars, they just weren't for me.

My take is that Gibson produce a massive range of products, and there should be something for everyone. It's well documented that sometimes there are QC issues, and I agree they shouldn't be there - but at the same time I would personally hold the shop/distributor more liable for that - they simply shouldn't pass these products onto us the customer. That's one of the reasons they're there - and it's criminal that a shop won't do the setup properly on these guitars (and remember they've been internationally shipped etc).

I personally just don't like the weight relief models, and wouldn't buy one again - but that doesn't make them bad guitars, just not to my taste

To say that the Gibson custom shop guitars are poor quality (or to imply that), is just not right - these are fine modern takes on classic guitars. Like all wooden instruments, some will be better than others, and some will work better than other for certain people but the whole brand is certainly not crap.

I think the only fair criticisms to Gibson is their marketing is awful, all this 'this year we've got the best authentic replica' stuff does them no favours, but the rest of it is really unfair.

And remember, they are a large company producing 1000's of guitars for the world market, under considerable scrutiny not only from people like us, but from shareholders and also government agencies - which puts a pressure on how 'authentic' they can be that small luthiers just don't have.

Equally, I have a 66 Fender - love that too, to me it's much better than all Fender Custom Shops I've played (maybe 6-7 this year) - but the Custom Shops weren't crap, I just liked mine better.

Your replicas look great, and I'm sure they're amazing - I've considered a Yaron before, Why not leave it at that?

Danielsguitars

O

Voxman

peteri said:

I really appreciate you sharing this experience - thank you for that.

I think a number of people (to be honest including myself) - don't think it needs the Gibson bashing element.

Full disclosure - I've owned a number of Gibsons, specifically - a couple of Studios (both weight and non weight relieved), a late 90's (non weight relieved from memory) Standard, and currently own (and will never sell) what is the perfect Les Paul for me - a 72 Custom.

This year I have played, in depth - not just shop plinking:

59 Les Paul Jr, 61 Les Paul Jr (SG), 66 SG Jr, 69 Les Paul Deluxe, 73 Les Paul Deluxe, Tom Murphy R7, 1980 Custom

Point of the above, I'm not claiming divine ears or fingers - but I've played a few recently (I've got into buying guitars again!).

Of the above 'vintage' ones - the 59 Jr and both deluxes, I wouldn't have paid firewood values for them. I just didn't like them - I couldn't understand the price, or why anyone would buy them.

The R7 and 1980 custom I could appreciate but they weren't for me.

Through playing the above, I've realised - I'm sensitive to two things - the guitar resonance (turns out that's very important to me, surprised myself) - I like quite a trebly resonance. And the neck shoulder - I don't have the biggest hands, and that shoulder is all important.

But I wouldn't claim non of the above were bad guitars, they just weren't for me.

My take is that Gibson produce a massive range of products, and there should be something for everyone. It's well documented that sometimes there are QC issues, and I agree they shouldn't be there - but at the same time I would personally hold the shop/distributor more liable for that - they simply shouldn't pass these products onto us the customer. That's one of the reasons they're there - and it's criminal that a shop won't do the setup properly on these guitars (and remember they've been internationally shipped etc).

I personally just don't like the weight relief models, and wouldn't buy one again - but that doesn't make them bad guitars, just not to my taste

To say that the Gibson custom shop guitars are poor quality (or to imply that), is just not right - these are fine modern takes on classic guitars. Like all wooden instruments, some will be better than others, and some will work better than other for certain people but the whole brand is certainly not crap.

I think the only fair criticisms to Gibson is their marketing is awful, all this 'this year we've got the best authentic replica' stuff does them no favours, but the rest of it is really unfair.

And remember, they are a large company producing 1000's of guitars for the world market, under considerable scrutiny not only from people like us, but from shareholders and also government agencies - which puts a pressure on how 'authentic' they can be that small luthiers just don't have.

Equally, I have a 66 Fender - love that too, to me it's much better than all Fender Custom Shops I've played (maybe 6-7 this year) - but the Custom Shops weren't crap, I just liked mine better.

Your replicas look great, and I'm sure they're amazing - I've considered a Yaron before, Why not leave it at that?

Great post Peteri - have a wisdom! 

peteri

@voxman I thank you!

Danielsguitars

O

goldtop

It takes a strong will to tell the owner of a vintage Gibson that his guitar isn't as good as something more modern/mundane, like a replica or Historic. I don't think it happens much - it's like telling someone that their child is ugly.

I've got a Max Burst replica and it is a better guitar (to me) than my '55 goldtop. I won't be mentioning that when I eventually sell the '55 and I'll make sure the Max is out of sight so that there's no request to A/B them.

Replica makers have a tough time. The guys who will pay the big money want a Gibson logo. sure you can develop a rep and come up with your own mods and logo (Huber), but that takes a brave guy and quite some extra marketing.

Strat_a_tat_tat

customkits said:

Do you all want to start another thread  and carry on or shall we talk mord vintage stuff 

Anyone else's experiences are welcome

Was this thread ever meant to be about vintage stuff... or was it intended as a thinly veiled attempt to 'big up' a couple of replicas that apparently led you to conclude "a really good replica is very very close for a fraction of the money"?

... and these 'really good' replicas... were they made by you... but you failed to mention that in the first post?

To my eye... this thread is not exactly about what it initially claims to be about.

Danielsguitars

O

Strat_a_tat_tat

customkits said:

Oh shut up 

One cannot buy class... or a replica of it.

capo4th

Seriously.......

capo4th

.Fairplay to customkits he has created a great post about his replicas and experience. They are clearly good guitars anyone bashing should just wind it in or go and sit in your office and play your true historic period aged plastic long tenon beefy neck hide glue Murphy aged Gibson Les Paul.

I find replicas and what surrounds them a fascinating subject as most are quality weapons.
I think I t will always be a little secretive but the info is out there. I can't bring myself to spend £4000 -5000 on a Gibson but would love a replica that plays and sounds better for a massive discount.

Our heroes played these guitars we all want that name on the headstock when we look at our reflection in the mirror.

goldtop

Strat_a_tat_tat said:

customkits said:

Do you all want to start another thread  and carry on or shall we talk mord vintage stuff 

Anyone else's experiences are welcome

Was this thread ever meant to be about vintage stuff... or was it intended as a thinly veiled attempt to 'big up' a couple of replicas that apparently led you to conclude "a really good replica is very very close for a fraction of the money"?

... and these 'really good' replicas... were they made by you... but you failed to mention that in the first post?

To my eye... this thread is not exactly about what it initially claims to be about.

The question is whether the thread has anything of value in it, even if you ignore any marketing benefit for CK. I think it has.

Would the world be a better place if people were banned from bigging themselves up on social media? Probably, but don't hold your breath. Allay your cynicism and try to get something from it anyway.

Voxman

Its such a shame this thread has got a little awkward and perhaps even nudging to be a little personal.  I completely understand CK's excitement & desire in wanting to share his enviable experience and it is very nice indeed of him to do so via someone he knows with such a wonderful collection that's clearly a very nice guy and willing to share.  And its great to post stuff like this. 

But it seems to me that two themes arose that possibly struck a little bit of a discord with some folk.  

The first was regarding the comparison replicas.  I don't think anyone would have given it a second thought if right from the off CK explained it was his own handmade replicas that he wanted to compare - completely understandable.  For whatever reason, and probably quite unintentionally, it came across just a tad 'secretive' and 'defensive' that made folks wonder why the mystery and if there was any 'secret agenda' (and I must admit I fell into that camp myself)?

The second thing, and again I don't think it was meant intentionally, was the perception by some that Gibsons were getting a bit of a bashing.  Admittedly, it's deserved sometimes re various quality control themes that have been raised here and on other forums.  But many folk here have spent their hard earned money and bought R8/R9's etc and are for the most part very pleased with and proud of their purchase.  Of course not everyone can afford hand made replicas, but the other side of the coin is that the Gibson 'badging' still carries a lot of weight and comfort with regards to 'identity', 'street cred', easier re-sales etc etc and regardless of an instruments underlying quality shouldn't be too easily dismissed. So, perhaps there was a 'sensitivity' theme here, and a question of objectivity where own-made replicas seemed to be the comparison.

I appreciate CK might be feeling a bit 'wounded' at some of the reactions,  and I can completely get where he's coming from as I'm sure the thread was started with the very best of intentions, and it would be an awful shame to lose contributions from him - he's an experienced, well meaning guy and I'm sure has huge knowledge to share.

Forums are strange animals that can sometimes be tricky things because you're only going by printed words rather than meeting folk, seeing a smile, body language etc and words are all the reader is basing their perceptions on.  The old saying is that 'perception is reality' so if more than one person is reading something and perceiving it in a similar way, perhaps an open-minded reread of the thread might help the OP better identify how this might have come about and whether such perception might to some extent be viewed as 'fair comment'?  I'm not saying if it is or it isn't, just flagging the thought!  

Anyway, I for one thoroughly enjoyed reading about CK's day, and admiring all those lovely guitar pics. And it also opened my eyes to the world of replica guitars that I knew absolutely nothing about before. Having received a couple of very nice PM's from folk, I've been given a steer on these too.  As someone who is neither fortunate enough to yet  own a Gibson Reissue, or a replica, I'm the first to acknowledge that threads like this are a valuable learning curve for me where I can benefit from the wisdom, experience and knowledge of others here.  Which surely is what the forum's all about - yes?        
  

Sassafras

Either way, I couldn't care less.
I don't even know why I bothered to say that.
It should be obvious to anyone that knows me.

p90fool

As a Gibson owner I'm not even remotely sensitive about people criticising them, I'm an occasional customer, not a shareholder. 

But saying your guitar "craps all over the real thing" is the sort of thing you expect from a teenager selling a beltsanded Squier relic, and makes me a lot less curious about the undoubted talents of the builder.