Are vintage guitars now just kudos/investment

darcym

I'm a big fan of vintage guitars, specficlly early 60's strats I've played some lovely guitars that look, sound and feel great, I've also played a few duds too, not all where as great as the legend suggests.

I'm a big fan of the early 60's 335's Gibson did, again, played a load of great ones and a few "meh" ones

Love other vintage guitars especially Les Paul Jnr's but it's the 60's strats that personally excite me.

That said, at the time of writing (as I'm sure history will look back on this thread and Fender will have hit Gibson price/quality control) I'd now rather buy a custom shop strat in the colour/spec I want with that 60's vibe for a sniff of the price, the key things obviously being the price and getting basic things like the colour I want without having to spend 10 years looking for "the one" but the real key is I've never played a bad custom shop strat, (sure specs I don't like) but never a "dud".

With this in mind is there really any need for the desire for the vintage guitar beyond the current investment (who says the market won't fall out if everyone reaches this moment of clarity) or the bragging rights ?

I'd still buy a vintage strat if I found "the one" or the collection of "the ones" but it's much easier and pretty much a promise that if I order a custom shop strat it won't be a bad one.

If Gibson had the same promise or reputation on QC would there really be a market for 59 Les Pauls, 50/60's strats etc beyond the bragging rights ?

TheBigDipper

I can only speak for myself, but I'm uninterested in "vintage" as an end goal. If the guitar plays well, sounds good and I feel a connection then I don't care if it's vintage or not - just whether I can afford it or not! So I guess I sort of agree with you on a personal level. There are plenty of really fine guitars being made right now. 

I suspect there will continue to be a vintage market, though. Some people find vintage guitars appealing - even if the guitar is not as good (whatever that means) as something newer, just because it's vintage. They'll pay more for that and who am I to say they shouldn't? The joy of ownership is a wonderful thing and the supply of vintage guitars will get worse, not better.

Oh, and I've never played a '59 Les Paul, but I do own a 2009 '59 VOS. That was expensive enough... 

lustycourtier

You’d be brave to get into guitars as investment nowadays. 

stickyfiddle

Vintage guitars will remain valuable as long as people think they have value. Obviously that's a tautology, but we are starting to reach the point where those who were 12-18 when Buddy Holly, Elvis and The Beatles were first on TV are going to start dying in large numbers. When that really kicks in we'll see how much us young'uns value great old musical instruments. I suspect the absolute top end won't devalue (Blackguard Teles, '54 Strats 59 Les Paul, etc), the middling stuff will a little (60's 335s, 60's pre-CBS Fenders) and hopefully the bottom will fall out of the market for the 70's guitars which were the original trigger for the reverence towards the vintage stuff.

Then again we may have another adjustment when all the original plastic parts have gone to dust and "originality" ceases to be a target, and actually becomes something stopping those once-great guitars from being playable. I think we're almost there in a lot of cases. With any luck at that point the market will start caring solely about how good a musical instrument each old guitar is, and stop caring whether the screw holding the pickguard onto its '58 Les Paul is the original one put there in 1958.

Fuengi

I can't see vintage guitars as a good long term investment.

The market is now: men in their 40s to 70s who grew up with guitar hero's who can now afford to buy the things their Hero's played. 

In 30 years time - if no new guitar heros emerge - there will be a glut of vintage guitars when we all die off and leave them behind.  

Bridgehouse

It's just like all those antiques. Those folks born in the 1830s are dying off and the bottom is gonna fall out of Wedgewood

Garthy

Fuengi said:

I can't see vintage guitars as a good long term investment.

The market is now: men in their 40s to 70s who grew up with guitar hero's who can now afford to buy the things their Hero's played. 

In 30 years time - if no new guitar heros emerge - there will be a glut of vintage guitars when we all die off and leave them behind.  

I think the age bracket is even older, I bet there aren't many people born after 1965  who were into Led Zep, Clapton , Free, The Beatles etc.

The thing that baffles me, is that those vintage guitars used in the 60s and 70s weren't that old at the time, if I wanted to be true to Page surely I'd go and buy a 2009 Les Paul, his was only ten years old to him after all...

richardhomer

Based on what ‘some’ vintage dealers price at, it seems prices are still rising - even on less than ‘First Division’ stuff. Atoyboy has recently advertised a late 60s CAR Strat for about £11,000 - and if the turnover on their site is reflective of sales - they seem to shift significant numbers.

The question of whether such a guitar is ‘better’ than a new(ish) one is highly subjective - but my experience is that ‘most’ pre-‘65 Strats are great - later ones are very variable. My ‘64 335 is definitely better than any Historic I’ve played - but the difference isn’t night and day.

Most CS Strats I’ve played have been excellent - and some are exceptional. All are much cheaper than ‘the real thing’ - so as a musical instrument to own and play - they offer a practical solution to players.

The biggest issue with vintage Fenders is authentication; I’ve owned and played a fair number of real ones - but would be massively nervous about buying one now. I hold ‘most’ vintage dealers in pretty low esteem - it’s not just the Rick and Justin Harrisons who are dishonest - most of them are to a greater or lesser degree.

I paid sensible money for my 335 - the prices these days are just ridiculous. If you have the cash, really want want one - and know enough to make sure you’re not ripped off - then fair enough. 

I dont feel in any way short-changed by my CS Strat. It plays really well, sounds superb and is my favourite guitar to play. I never regret it isn’t a vintage guitar at all....

Bridgehouse

As a bass player, it's really interesting to hear the doom and gloom from the guitar angle. 

Bass features in in so many different styles (more than just guitar bands) and as such it's just as vibrant a playing scene as it ever was. In many ways the really big bass heroes were much later than the classic guitar heroes. 

You wouldnt get a discussion quite like this on a bass forum.

Fuengi

Bridgehouse said:i

It's just like all those antiques. Those folks born in the 1830s are dying off and the bottom is gonna fall out of Wedgewood

Look at the market for used pianos. Go through Gumtree and you'll find dozens free if you can collect. Nobody wants them. 

I see the same for guitars in the not too distant future. The large amp market is already getting there.... 

Bridgehouse

Fuengi said:

Bridgehouse said:i

It's just like all those antiques. Those folks born in the 1830s are dying off and the bottom is gonna fall out of Wedgewood

Look at the market for used pianos. Go through Gumtree and you'll find dozens free if you can collect. Nobody wants them. 

I see the same for guitars in the not too distant future. The large amp market is already getting there.... 

Go look at the value of used violins from pre-1950. Or cellos. Or any other orchestral instruments. 

Nobody wants a piano because modern houses just aren't built for them. They are expensive to transport, expensive to tune, and there is a cheaper, lighter, smaller modern equivalent that doesn't need tuning. 

meltedbuzzbox

The "vintage" market is such bullshit.
Look at the prices of 70s fenders. Generally sloppy made boat anchors slapped together in the cheapest way possible and now commanding prices around 3k at dealers.

Fiftyshadesofjay

The only reasons I can see any point of vintage guitars is either nostalgia or that guitars nowadays aren't as good. 

Pretty sure that the second reason is bollocks nowadays.

UnclePsychosis

Bridgehouse said:

As a bass player, it's really interesting to hear the doom and gloom from the guitar angle. 

Bass features in in so many different styles (more than just guitar bands) and as such it's just as vibrant a playing scene as it ever was. In many ways the really big bass heroes were much later than the classic guitar heroes. 

You wouldnt get a discussion quite like this on a bass forum.

-indeed. Probably because bass players realise that just because their instrument isn't the driving force behind the music doesn't mean that it's not worth listening to or playing. ;-)

Speaking for myself I've long said that if you want a great instrument, buy a modern one. If you want a cool instrument, buy vintage. If you want a great, cool instrument then prepare to be patient and wait till a great vintage instrument shows up (so long as you can afford it). 

I fully expect there to be massive amounts of vintage instruments for sale in the next 10-15 years as that demographic gets too old to play and then shuffle off to the great gig in the sky. 

Skipped

 Custom Shop re-issues are great.

 That is just as well. There are not enough vintage guitars to go round.

bodhi

richardhomer said:

I hold ‘most’ vintage dealers in pretty low esteem - it’s not just the Rick and Justin Harrisons who are dishonest - most of them are to a greater or lesser degree.

Agreed, at least for the ones I've had the misfortune of coming into contact with.  Profess a love for all things vintage guitar, but in the end just trying to make a quick buck.

designerseye88

In my opinion to a large degree yes, Vintage guitars are becoming about kudos / Investments, but i have no doubt the value of guitars will go down and up in the future. The appeal of vintage guitars for me is in contrast to something like cars as they require little to no cost to keep and right now while interest rates are so low I personally would rather put my money into a guitar which i can enjoy and I know will likely hold it's value if not rise a little. I don't particularity see the vintage market going 'belly up' any time soon but i think the overall mantra should be to buy with your heart rather than your head. 

I personally am in my 20's and I think the audience for people who can afford vintage guitars is usually people in their 40's+ who's idols were the guitar gods of their day. Their will of course be exceptions but most people my age don't see the appeal. My girlfriend finds it odd that i want to keep going on forums and talking to blokes about guitars   I personally enjoy vintage guitars because i like the history, the workmanship and the story - aside form the sound. 

That being said their will be some guitars (59 Les Paul's & instruments owned by celebrities) that i think will keep rising. These (59 LP's) are the modern Stradivarius of our time and due to the supply being so small this market will always rise. These guitars are in the same category as art and that market generally stays pretty firm.  

pmg

I’d like a nice fender offset -vintage/custom shop/Marr jag will do but my choice will be how it plays and suits me (and hopefully not a matching headstock finish) rather than if it’s vintage or not

Phil_aka_Pip

OP I think a certain Mr T Wilkinson might like them to be!

ICBM

stickyfiddle said:

Vintage guitars will remain valuable as long as people think they have value. Obviously that's a tautology, but we are starting to reach the point where those who were 12-18 when Buddy Holly, Elvis and The Beatles were first on TV are going to start dying in large numbers. When that really kicks in we'll see how much us young'uns value great old musical instruments. I suspect the absolute top end won't devalue (Blackguard Teles, '54 Strats 59 Les Paul, etc), the middling stuff will a little (60's 335s, 60's pre-CBS Fenders) and hopefully the bottom will fall out of the market for the 70's guitars which were the original trigger for the reverence towards the vintage stuff.

Then again we may have another adjustment when all the original plastic parts have gone to dust and "originality" ceases to be a target, and actually becomes something stopping those once-great guitars from being playable. I think we're almost there in a lot of cases. With any luck at that point the market will start caring solely about how good a musical instrument each old guitar is, and stop caring whether the screw holding the pickguard onto its '58 Les Paul is the original one put there in 1958.

Absolutely this.

I've said this probably a dozen times already, but every Stradivari (and other contemporary maker) violin that's now played in modern orchestral music has been rebuilt - at the very least it has a new bridge, fingerboard, nut and an increased neck angle. All have replacement tuning pegs and almost all replacement tailpieces too. Almost all have had body repairs involving the top being taken off and re-glued, and finish touch-ups.

If you did all that to a '59 Les Paul, what would it be worth? But for what it is worth, one that comes close is the Peter Green/Gary Moore/Kirk Hammett (I love saying that last name since it really pisses off Les Paul snobs ) one - and it's one of the most valuable, because of its history and its tone, not its originality.

In another 50 years all the 'original plastics' will be gone, many of the original pickups will have needed rewinding, the original pots replaced etc... who cares? They won't sound any worse for it. If there is anything special about the sound of those guitars, it's mostly in the wood, and possibly the pickups - and luckily we have experts who can wind new ones that sound as good, now.

Phil_aka_Pip

Bridgehouse said:

Fuengi said:

Bridgehouse said:i

It's just like all those antiques. Those folks born in the 1830s are dying off and the bottom is gonna fall out of Wedgewood

Look at the market for used pianos. Go through Gumtree and you'll find dozens free if you can collect. Nobody wants them. 

I see the same for guitars in the not too distant future. The large amp market is already getting there.... 

Go look at the value of used violins from pre-1950. Or cellos. Or any other orchestral instruments. 

Nobody wants a piano because modern houses just aren't built for them. They are expensive to transport, expensive to tune, and there is a cheaper, lighter, smaller modern equivalent that doesn't need tuning. 

That's true but unless you're spending £k you don't get a keyboard that feels like a real piano to play