Are vintage guitars now just kudos/investment

Moe_Zambeek

We've been hearing of the demise of vintage since the late 90s and it hasn't happened yet. There are still plenty of rich people looking for a place to park their money and the prices are still pretty high.

I think we've got to the stage now where lots of folks are willing the market to collapse but reality isn't playing ball. I don't expect the 'boomer die off' to provoke the massive sell off either; I think there's at least one subsequent generation now making serious money who have an interest. Kirk and Joe aren't boomers. 

Of course there are still the sharks and hucksters in the vintage dealers, but they're just the equivalent of the dodgy share salesmen, timeshare sellers, bitcoin investment fund opportunists etc. who exist on the edges only to fleece the unwary who can't quite make it into the top tier market with good advice available.

Probably better for us normal folks to enjoy the high quality new guitars available at a range of reasonable price points and leave the true vintage stuff to the moneyed. We're not really missing much.

Moe_Zambeek

meltedbuzzbox said:

jeztone2 said:

Growing up in the 1980's I understood why people paid more for an older one because the 70's guitars I played did feel inferior. So yes to me the idea I'd pay two grand plus for a 78 Strat is laughable. 

But the other thing is technique. Back in the 1970's and 1980's popular music was challenging to play. Whereas now it's all made on laptops. So does some stage school kid really get the nuances of why something is good in the first place? Metal and Djent seem to be evolving. But I never thought I'd be blowing away 22 year olds in indie bands at my age, simply because the musical bar has fallen so low.

Personally, I think the golden age of guitar making is now. Because people understand why things work. There are no accidents. I guess when the wood runs out its the problem.

I think you are missing the point of music if you think it's merits lie in technique. I want to hear good music, not someone fret wanking out a load of notes.
Now days how accessible is a guitar and amp compared to a laptop? 
Why learn an instrument that has limited scope when you can have everything via a midi keyboard and vst plugins.
Decent composition still takes skill, even if it is done on a laptop.

Having experimented a bit with electronic music making it's actually quite difficult from a standing start - there's a learning curve so it's not like people just boot the laptop and create a great tune after 5 minutes...

stickyfiddle

@jumping@shadows you can't just casually drop that black 330 into a thread without more info! Is it yours? Can I have it?  

darcym

really interesting view points all, enjoyed reading them.

StuartMac290

Jeeeeez, that Pelham Blue SG...

darcym

StuartMac290 said:

Jeeeeez, that Pelham Blue SG...

I thought the same, not often an SG looks exciting to me, that one did

slacker

Some people have mentioned the 80s and I started playing in 1980. A new Strat was about £300 and not great. A '62' Strat (they were all 57 or 62 in Melody Maker) was about £400. It wasnt really a problem what to choose apart from the fact that I was on £45 a week. 

Now I'm on a little more than £45 a week but new Strats are £1500 a 62 is £15K? So the reissues and Custom Shops are a really good alternative. Some of the Ris are 20 years old which makes them the same age a real one was in the 80s. 

IMHO a really good RI with some work done on a good setup/fretwork is going to be a far better prospect than a Pre CBS Strat. Which one would I take down the Dog and Duck? 

ICBM

jumping@shadows said:

I worked for Vintage And Rare Guitars in London for a number of years which was one of, if not THE most overpriced and hype driven shop out there, where knowledgeable customers would openly laugh at pricing, and my former boss Chris Trigg was only looking for the easy mark he could dupe with his well oiled patter littered with ‘investment’, ‘exceptional’, ‘the best I’ve seen in 40 years’, ‘Eric...’ etc etc, and he duped MANY with inferior, hidden issues and fabricated provenance guitars.
I was up to my ears in this stuff for 40+ hours a week, and until I got involved no attempt was made to make the guitars more playable, or even checked for functionality in many cases, so very often they were far beneath their potential, and priced double of their realistic value.

That's very interesting. The received wisdom seems to be that they're one of the more honest vintage dealers, and that some of the premium you pay is because of that - but that's not been my experience really, with a few things friends of mine have bought from them. Although I don't doubt they're less totally crooked than some who could be mentioned...

Your work proves the point that tone and playability are more important than originality too, once you aren't in the 'museum piece' category.

The neck joint on that '59 LP Special still looks frighteningly fragile though .

jumping@shadows

@StuartMac  @darcym Thanks! There’s more where that came from :-) 

Wazmeister

I think that at a certain age, with certain disposable income, vintage guitars start to become desirable and the GAS increases...

For the past 12 months or so, hiding behind the 'guise' of my 50th, I've been on a vintage guitar search and have played many. I was after a '67 initially, but 5 figure prices soon sorted that one out.

The vintage all varied in quality, sound and feel (as you would expect) and none of them grabbed me, nor did I fall in love with any of them.

Almost without exception, most CS and Masterbuilt (MB) were at least equal to the vintage Ive played.

(I did find out that I like worn in necks, and an 'aged' feel - this in itself meant that my newish Collings acoustic was then sold, as Id like a worn in feel on those too).

And I did find that I never played a better guitar than my MB Strat. The MB have in turn now increased to ridiculous prices that the vintage were fetching only a few years ago.

The exception was the '72 Thinline which I bought from @St_Hubbins and sold to @kjdowd.

That was a beauty and a player !

jumping@shadows

@slacker That all rings true, but if you could have a real featherweight ‘62 slab board Strat refinished in aged Olympic White that’s so correct and authentic only knowing the restorer who did it would reveal it’s been touched, and pickups expertly rewound to be in the ideal balanced range for a fat and hollow neck pickup, compressed and clucky middle and thick and articulate bridge and a perfect refret and set up, for the price of two and a half CS RI’s (which you probably already have in equivalent value in modern guitars anyway), why wouldn’t you? 

fretfinder

ICBM said:

jumping@shadows said:

I worked for Vintage And Rare Guitars in London for a number of years which was one of, if not THE most overpriced and hype driven shop out there, where knowledgeable customers would openly laugh at pricing, and my former boss Chris Trigg was only looking for the easy mark he could dupe with his well oiled patter littered with ‘investment’, ‘exceptional’, ‘the best I’ve seen in 40 years’, ‘Eric...’ etc etc, and he duped MANY with inferior, hidden issues and fabricated provenance guitars.
I was up to my ears in this stuff for 40+ hours a week, and until I got involved no attempt was made to make the guitars more playable, or even checked for functionality in many cases, so very often they were far beneath their potential, and priced double of their realistic value.

That's very interesting. The received wisdom seems to be that they're one of the more honest vintage dealers, and that some of the premium you pay is because of that - but that's not been my experience really, with a few things friends of mine have bought from them. Although I don't doubt they're less totally crooked than some who could be mentioned...

Your work proves the point that tone and playability are more important than originality too, once you aren't in the 'museum piece' category.

The neck joint on that '59 LP Special still looks frighteningly fragile though .

Vintage ‘N’ Rare in Bath is now under new management in its Bath shop and the above mentioned boss is no longer involved. The current owner is a chap called Nigel - not me though!!

guitars4you

@jumping@shadows ; - I think your detailed comments above is another very valid perspective on the vintage issue - I've seen many old guitars that are offered for sale in stores, shows, private sales etc that are just not showing the guitars potential one iota - I was recently offered for sale an early 60's Epiphone Olympic - pretty much original but the frets were so worn down they almost only represented a line - I passed comment and judgement about why the owner would want to leave it like this as IMO it make the guitar pretty much impossible to play to any potential whatsoever - his reply was based around keeping it all original - My reply was based around a good refret should not have any negative value on such a guitar but will certainly allow a player to buy it with a view to using it - Bottom line is I did not buy it, knowing that something around a £200 fee would be required on top of what was his high value, just to make it playable - I could not see any point in trying to sell it as it was

I've not seen any of your work - at least I don't think I have - But I'm interested to look at your work and appropriate feedback on your work carried out and various projects - And I admire what you bring to the table, with the final performance character as vital part of the outcome - It is like car hot rod/custom car projects when they 'rebuild' a 1950's or 60's car - Part of the project is improvement, be it BHP, brakes, suspension etc

The chassis to your projects are a great base to start from and the final results look very interesting and importantly revitalize old guitars that in some other industry might be placed in a  tip/dump - So total credit to adding additional life to such old guitars - And as you have proven, a market place exists for such guitars - The pics supplied look so cool - If I was gigging and wanted an old guitar, then a project from you would interest me more than an original which would put the fear of god into me to take to the 'Bull and Bush' on a Sat night

My only negative ref your blog is I don't see 69 Strats for sale to day for less than a C/Shop version - I'm not saying Reverb and such sites are the be all and end all regarding pricing, but they are  a major influence - in fact I sometimes find it a 3:1 ratio between original and replica prices and in some instances more than that when I just looked on google

Great blog to read and total credit to yourself - look forward to seeing more projects on FB as time goes buy

musicman100

I do honestly think that in general vintage guitars are over hyped n a lot of the time this comes from people who don't own them n quite offen not played many and have just read all the hype in magazines n on forums. 

In the right context I do enjoy a decent vintage guitar but I by no means think they are the be all n end all. 

richardhomer

With regard to Chris Trigg - a friend who used to be one of the country’s most well-known repairers - accompanied a wealthy customer to V&R in the late ‘80s to authenticate some vintage Strats he was considering buying.

One 50s example was presented as ‘totally original’. My friend examined it and pointed to the dark marks in the fingerboard - and looking Trigg in the eye - said, “Isn’t it amazing how Leo managed to get the wear marks underneath the finish?”

IIRC the guitar was about £1200 at the time. If lies were told about them when the difference between complete originality and a few ‘issues’ amounted to perhaps £500, I guarantee it’s more widespread now.....

menamestom

The short answer is that it depends on the model.  I would’t spend the price of a small house on a strat, but something like an ES330 would be worth it because they don’t cost much more than new ones from Gibson.   In that scenario I’d buy whichever felt the best.    

There is still some value in the vintage market, but only the less popular models.

kjdowd

Wazmeister said:

I think that at a certain age, with certain disposable income, vintage guitars start to become desirable and the GAS increases...

For the past 12 months or so, hiding behind the 'guise' of my 50th, I've been on a vintage guitar search and have played many. I was after a '67 initially, but 5 figure prices soon sorted that one out.

The vintage all varied in quality, sound and feel (as you would expect) and none of them grabbed me, nor did I fall in love with any of them.

Almost without exception, most CS and Masterbuilt (MB) were at least equal to the vintage Ive played.

(I did find out that I like worn in necks, and an 'aged' feel - this in itself meant that my newish Collings acoustic was then sold, as Id like a worn in feel on those too).

And I did find that I never played a better guitar than my MB Strat. The MB have in turn now increased to ridiculous prices that the vintage were fetching only a few years ago.

The exception was the '72 Thinline which I bought from @St_Hubbins and sold to @kjdowd.

That was a beauty and a player !

It is indeed!

jumping@shadows

guitars4you said:

@jumping@shadows ;; - I think your detailed comments above is another very valid perspective on the vintage issue - I've seen many old guitars that are offered for sale in stores, shows, private sales etc that are just not showing the guitars potential one iota - I was recently offered for sale an early 60's Epiphone Olympic - pretty much original but the frets were so worn down they almost only represented a line - I passed comment and judgement about why the owner would want to leave it like this as IMO it make the guitar pretty much impossible to play to any potential whatsoever - his reply was based around keeping it all original - My reply was based around a good refret should not have any negative value on such a guitar but will certainly allow a player to buy it with a view to using it - Bottom line is I did not buy it, knowing that something around a £200 fee would be required on top of what was his high value, just to make it playable - I could not see any point in trying to sell it as it was

I've not seen any of your work - at least I don't think I have - But I'm interested to look at your work and appropriate feedback on your work carried out and various projects - And I admire what you bring to the table, with the final performance character as vital part of the outcome - It is like car hot rod/custom car projects when they 'rebuild' a 1950's or 60's car - Part of the project is improvement, be it BHP, brakes, suspension etc

The chassis to your projects are a great base to start from and the final results look very interesting and importantly revitalize old guitars that in some other industry might be placed in a  tip/dump - So total credit to adding additional life to such old guitars - And as you have proven, a market place exists for such guitars - The pics supplied look so cool - If I was gigging and wanted an old guitar, then a project from you would interest me more than an original which would put the fear of god into me to take to the 'Bull and Bush' on a Sat night

My only negative ref your blog is I don't see 69 Strats for sale to day for less than a C/Shop version - I'm not saying Reverb and such sites are the be all and end all regarding pricing, but they are  a major influence - in fact I sometimes find it a 3:1 ratio between original and replica prices and in some instances more than that when I just looked on google

Great blog to read and total credit to yourself - look forward to seeing more projects on FB as time goes buy

Thanks for the positive comments @guitars4you  
As the guitars I work on are already modified (often very poorly!), I’m able to reincarnate them in their ultimate guise, so a stripped/neck dowelled ‘64 SG with no original parts and evidence of 6 previous tremolos becomes an aged Pelham Blue with B5 Bigsby, or a ‘54 Les Paul Goldtop that was chiselled out for a Hagstrom trem, recessed MIJ bridge and humbuckers becomes a sunburst ‘59 Standard with double white PAFs, and the list goes on..
All of my guitars are bought at a price reflecting their condition and status on the vintage pricing scale, and I’ve even been given guitars so trashed that it makes zero sense to invest time and money in restoration, so they’re very affordable- but as a mate just sold a Slash signed/aged ‘58 plain top reissue for €16k and I’m currently working on a  featherlight, fat necked and flamey genuine ‘56/‘59 Les Paul Burst  conversion with late ‘50s PAFs, my prices are going up! 

jumping@shadows

richardhomer said:

With regard to Chris Trigg - a friend who used to be one of the country’s most well-known repairers - accompanied a wealthy customer to V&R in the late ‘80s to authenticate some vintage Strats he was considering buying.

One 50s example was presented as ‘totally original’. My friend examined it and pointed to the dark marks in the fingerboard - and looking Trigg in the eye - said, “Isn’t it amazing how Leo managed to get the wear marks underneath the finish?”

IIRC the guitar was about £1200 at the time. If lies were told about them when the difference between complete originality and a few ‘issues’ amounted to perhaps £500, I guarantee it’s more widespread now.....

I don’t doubt it for a second unfortunately  He stumbled into the trade after making friends with Norm Harris (whom we took about £50k guitars a month on tick from FYI), and has neither an interest in guitars nor music, just money, and he’d have been as effective pedalling used cars, fake antiques or fine art and it does not take an expert to dismantle the charade... Despite being made unemployed by text message (which speaks volumes to his character and sense of responsibility), with a new born baby and no other income, getting rid of V&R was one of the best things that ever happened to me  

Voxman

If I was rich & had money to burn I'd love an early 60's Strat, rosewood board in the metallic Lake Placid Blue that had gone more teal/turquoise, simply because I love that colour and it would just be nice to have something a bit special and rarer. Obviously, it would need to be 100% legit and I'd likely have to pay a 'premium' for it through a trusted specialist seller. 

But from a playability & tone perspective, would it actually be noticeably any better than a good custom shop Strat at maybe an 8th of the price - or would it even be as good? But as I simply couldn't afford it anyway its a moot point - whereas a CS Strat is something realistically achievable.