Are vintage guitars now just kudos/investment

Bridgehouse

There's a lot made of the "new" versus "vintage" thing.

Similarly guitars are an odd thing because of their place in recent music history. 

I have a vintage bass. It cost a lot of money. It's a Fender so it's a bolt on neck mass produced instrument that is probably in manufacturing terms inferior to its modern equivalent. 

However, I didn't buy it because it's vintage. I bought it for how it plays, how it sounds and how it feels in the hands. I've played a lot of P basses in the last 12 months and I can say that for me, it's the best playing bass I've had the pleasure of playing. And that's a combination of the fretboard, the neck angle, the hardware, the pickups, and the sound. 

To be honest, it's not the best looking bass out there. In fact, it's the worst colour, it's bashed about, the pickguard is shrinking and the tuners are clunky. 

But it's all in the playing and the sound. 

I am sure there will be bass players in 30 years time. I am sure for some of them, a pre-CBS precision like mine will still appeal as a player. 

Will it be an investment then? I don't know, and I don't care. It's the first instrument I've really bonded with. So I don't care if it's not kept up it's relative worth. It's worth more to me as a player. 

Bridgehouse

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Bridgehouse said:

Fuengi said:

Bridgehouse said:i

It's just like all those antiques. Those folks born in the 1830s are dying off and the bottom is gonna fall out of Wedgewood

Look at the market for used pianos. Go through Gumtree and you'll find dozens free if you can collect. Nobody wants them. 

I see the same for guitars in the not too distant future. The large amp market is already getting there.... 

Go look at the value of used violins from pre-1950. Or cellos. Or any other orchestral instruments. 

Nobody wants a piano because modern houses just aren't built for them. They are expensive to transport, expensive to tune, and there is a cheaper, lighter, smaller modern equivalent that doesn't need tuning. 

That's true but unless you're spending £k you don't get a keyboard that feels like a real piano to play

And yet we still hear an awful lot of music with piano in it.. certainly more than guitar based music

timhulio

Think beyond the usual Fender and Gibson suspects and there's some fun vintage stuff out there for not too much coin. 

These guitars are not unplayable:



This one rocks ass and sounds different to lots of generic new stuff:

GuyR

Golden-era Martin values don't seem to have slipped as the audiences who saw them played new have died off.
Having said that, in my opinion it is not sensible to buy a guitar on the basis that you expect to sell it at a profit due to a rise in the market. If you don't see the point in vintage, don't buy it, if you do, spend only what you can afford to burn on a vintage instrument you love to play. I only regret the vintage guitars I didn't buy, 

Fuengi

Points taken.

However, if current projections for future guitar sales are in any way accurate there will be massive quantities of very decent used guitars on the market within a couple of decades. 

That has to have have a knock on affect for the top of the market. 

dindude

I think it’s another tier on kudos and bragging rights, the tiers being.

Electric Guitar
USA Made Electric Guitar
Custom Shop Electric Guitar
Masterbuilt Custom Shop Electric Guitar
Vintage Electric Guitar
Vintage “golden age” Electric Guitar
Vintage “golden age” Electric Guitar owned by someone famous / with historical significance

But in every category above I think you’ll find great and not so great, and probably by the time you get to custom Shop, the reliability of finding a good ‘un and the diminishing returns of moving up a tier are really not worth it. I also think that age itself may give mojo but doesn’t necessarily add to the guitar itself, bearing in mind all of our hero’s used what were relatively new instruments at the time.

Rocker

With so much fakery going on, there was a thread here that highlighted fake Marshall amps, if I had the money, I would be reluctant to spend it on a vintage guitar or amp.  Modern instruments are generally very well made and are playable.  A genuine vintage instrument might, just might, sound better.  I expect it would be a close run thing and not worth the gamble.

fandango

New versus vintage. Two very different markets.

If you've got a grand for a new guitar, you ain't looking for vintage.

If you're a collector, then new isn't going to float your boat. Vintage is about the story, hence this kind of interest.

Would I be right or wrong if I said "Never the twain shall meet"?

Bridgehouse

fandango said:

New versus vintage. Two very different markets.

If you've got a grand for a new guitar, you ain't looking for vintage.

If you're a collector, then new isn't going to float your boat. Vintage is about the story, hence this kind of interest.

Would I be right or wrong if I said "Never the twain shall meet"?

No. I have both. It's totally about playability and sound for me.

scalino65

Having owned vintage and modern, I agree with all the comments that state there are good and bad examples of both.Having been through about 8 CS strats in the last 18 months I have settled on a a 56 CS that is by far the best CS i've ever found. It even beats a limited run 99 54 relic that I've owned from new which I thought would be unbeatable.
I cant see why the same wouldnt apply to pre-cbs strats. There will be a whole spectrum of guitars out there.
There is also a hell of a lot of fakes and bitsas and nonsense that goes along with that market and it really is a case of buyer beware.
But, the answer to the question, will old guitars continue to be sought after in the future? I think that will only be answered with the benefit of hindsight. Certainly, will the children of the current owners who inherit these things be interested, I suspect the answer is theyll be less interested than their parents were, Especially if it means the deposit on a place to live,etc.

guitars4you

A simple commercial fact exists in that if the market place allows sellers to charge and achieve a 5 digit price tag (6 digits in some instances) for a vintage guitar, then appropriate conditions will prevail - Then another simple fact dictates that if you have the appropriate funds, then you don't need to justify  your passion and desire to buy such a guitar - On that basis the buyer does not need to determine if the vintage guitar is better, by 5 or 10 times the amount of a good replica, as their funds allow  them to purchase such a guitar - and who are we to argue ?

The issue then arises in that how original and correct is your vintage guitar and who has signed it off to be as per the appropriate details as listed, when you purchased it - I'm sure there are many kosher vintage guitars out there, but there are many dubious examples, either by design or ignorance

If and I would like to emphasis the if word, but if a replica is inferior to an original example, then the difference has been minimalised by Fender and Gibson to the point of negligible - the fact that you can own, gig, insure and replace a replica at a far more realistic price than an original example, is worth taking into account - As a dealer who makes a good living selling replicas then it is easy to be biased - Yet equally I would not wish to discredit players/collectors who own good original examples - But not all old guitars are good, but the value of old guitars is based on their originality and not their performance - Custom Shop have no option but to sell their offerings based on their playing performance and related attributes - In that if they did not measure up to expectations they would not sell and players would buy a more affordable replica/copy from a lower price point within the manufactures price range/catalogue

Personally I'm more than content to own, play and sell many fine replicas - For the record it was only a few years ago that I spent about 15 mins with the Green/Moore/Hammett Les Paul - as a big Moore fan it was like a kids visit to Disney Land when I first opened the case - Yet I've played many many replicas that I prefer the playing performance of compared to that famous LP - It just did not appeal to me based on performance - Yet if I had the funds of a Chelsea FC owner then I'd be proud to be the custodian of such a guitar, to own for all its magical mojo and history, but I'd be buying it because of what it represents to me and not as a guitar that performs like I wish it would

Bridgehouse

I think a more relevant question would be "Will there be a market for guitars at all in the future, and if so how big will it be?"

jeztone2

Growing up in the 1980's I understood why people paid more for an older one because the 70's guitars I played did feel inferior. So yes to me the idea I'd pay two grand plus for a 78 Strat is laughable. 

But the other thing is technique. Back in the 1970's and 1980's popular music was challenging to play. Whereas now it's all made on laptops. So does some stage school kid really get the nuances of why something is good in the first place? Metal and Djent seem to be evolving. But I never thought I'd be blowing away 22 year olds in indie bands at my age, simply because the musical bar has fallen so low.

Personally, I think the golden age of guitar making is now. Because people understand why things work. There are no accidents. I guess when the wood runs out its the problem.

guitars4you

Fuengi said:

However, if current projections for future guitar sales are in any way accurate there will be massive quantities of very decent used guitars on the market within a couple of decades. 

That has to have have a knock on affect for the top of the market. 

I won't disagree with this as a thought pattern - Yet as the prices of new USA models and replicas continue to rise significantly, for many reasons - then the used market place may well be come more buoyant despite the current  'glut' of used products that are offered for sale today - purely as these used guitars will then be deemed as affordable compared to new prices - As such the manufactures of new guitars have the worry and issues to attend to ad they can't make £10 notes and sell them for £5

timhulio

Bridgehouse said:

I think a more relevant question would be "Will there be a market for guitars at all in the future, and if so how big will it be?"

Whilst at the Liverpool guitar show last weekend I kept thinking: Fender should give free Squiers to all the schools that still have music departments. Not Gibson, obviously, as the things would break within five minutes. But they'd be sure to make their money back with kids asking for instruments for Christmas and birthdays. The online lesson things Fender are doing seem a nice start, but unless the big players do something novel there won't be half the market there is now in ten years time.

Good plan, eh? @MattFGBI  ;

tampaxboo

A guitar that plays well and one can afford is the basic guiding criteria for the younger half of the population (I fit into that demographic, just).

My overwhelming impression is that younger players are less able and less willing to pay a 'vintage premium' (that extra charge over and above the actual quality of the instrument as an instrument), so are quite ruthless about bang for buck in a way property-owning baby boomers (not being pejorative, just classifiying a group) don't have to be.

They are also not so sentimental for an age in which they never lived. Wood is wood and nostaligia is nostalgia.

tampaxboo

A guitar that plays well and one can afford is the basic guiding criteria for most of the younger half of the population (I fit into that demographic, just).

My overwhelming impression is that younger players are less able and less willing to pay a 'vintage premium' (that extra charge over and above the actual quality of the instrument as an instrument), so are quite ruthless about bang for buck in a way property-owning baby boomers (not being pejorative, just classifiying a group) don't have to be.

They are also not so sentimental for an age in which they never lived. Wood is wood and nostaligia is nostalgia.

Arktik83

A more pertinent question would be whether the people who are buying vintage gear are actually guitar players?  Like Mark (@Guitars4You) has stipulated, a lot of old guitars aren't actually playable let alone to a modern day guitarists taste (fret board radius etc.).

I'd wager that a lot of these guitars are going in to the hands of people who will just hang them upon the wall and use them as a showpiece or use them as some kind of investment.  Why?  Because they probably cannot afford the vintage Violins or are priced out of guitars that were played by their guitar hero's so they settle for the next best thing.

These are the kind of people who have settled the mortgages, kids have moved on and they had a spare £10k/whatever for an "extravagant" purchase but they're not going to go nuts so will buy sensibly on something they believe will yield a return.

Unless they're in the USA where they can write off most of their tax and can buy whatever vintage instrument JoBo can't keep around anymore :-P

jumping@shadows

Interesting discussion guys  
As much as this is inevitably an advert for @guitars4you, I feel the space between ‘vintage collectible’ and ‘superior guitar’ is where what I specialise in comes in :-)
I worked for Vintage And Rare Guitars in London for a number of years which was one of, if not THE most overpriced and hype driven shop out there, where knowledgeable customers would openly laugh at pricing, and my former boss Chris Trigg was only looking for the easy mark he could dupe with his well oiled patter littered with ‘investment’, ‘exceptional’, ‘the best I’ve seen in 40 years’, ‘Eric...’ etc etc, and he duped MANY with inferior, hidden issues and fabricated provenance guitars.
I was up to my ears in this stuff for 40+ hours a week, and until I got involved no attempt was made to make the guitars more playable, or even checked for functionality in many cases, so very often they were far beneath their potential, and priced double of their realistic value.
I’m a dyed in the wool vintage nut, and got the bug quite early with a beat to death ‘69 Strat I bought at 17 which absolutely slayed anything I’d touched to to that point- sub 7lbs, incredible original grey bottom pickups, Rory Gallagher level finish wear and a total head turner in sound, vibe and looks, and I got several gigs thanks to that alone. 
It cost less than a new CS, was obviously superior in every way, and I sold it for over twice what I paid for it some years later, and it actually ended up in V&R a couple years back and sold for almost £8k  
This and many other ‘player grade vintage’ guitars since proved to me a properly set up, ‘race tuned’ and maintained vintage guitar is always superior to the reissue, and if you can buy a real ‘69 Strat for less than the Reissue CS ‘69, why on earth would you not? If you’re interested in a ‘vintage reissue’, why not skip the reissue bit, and get the real deal if it’s affordable because it’s well worn of has issues which means the ‘investors’ turn their noses up at it?
Seeking out and playing such guitars, then eventually moving into restoration, and being able to sell any guitar I’ve completed many times over from the demand/interest they generate, it’s obvious there’s a large market who want an affordable, perfectly set up and fine tuned vintage guitar, with expertly addressed issues that only affect the ‘investment value’,  but which are eminently useable and resealable.
Here’s a few examples of player grade vintage guitars I’ve restored, which in fully stock/original condition would cost into six figures, and be too valuable/rare to even refret without hard consideration, or god forbid  swap a muddy neck pickup or weedy bridge pickup, change out intermittent pots/dud caps, replace a poorly cut factory nut etc, or even get much play if they were overly heavy/poor sounding as any such mods would destroy the collector value.
I would never in my lifetime be able to afford these is they hadn’t been in need of restoration, but the fact that they did means I’ve enjoyed most of the blue chip vintage guitars one could ever hope for, and all were absolutely at the pinnacle of their potential as I was able to build them back up from scratch, selecting each component and making decisions based on tone and performance as the ultimate goal   

meltedbuzzbox

jeztone2 said:

Growing up in the 1980's I understood why people paid more for an older one because the 70's guitars I played did feel inferior. So yes to me the idea I'd pay two grand plus for a 78 Strat is laughable. 

But the other thing is technique. Back in the 1970's and 1980's popular music was challenging to play. Whereas now it's all made on laptops. So does some stage school kid really get the nuances of why something is good in the first place? Metal and Djent seem to be evolving. But I never thought I'd be blowing away 22 year olds in indie bands at my age, simply because the musical bar has fallen so low.

Personally, I think the golden age of guitar making is now. Because people understand why things work. There are no accidents. I guess when the wood runs out its the problem.

I think you are missing the point of music if you think it's merits lie in technique. I want to hear good music, not someone fret wanking out a load of notes.
Now days how accessible is a guitar and amp compared to a laptop? 
Why learn an instrument that has limited scope when you can have everything via a midi keyboard and vst plugins.
Decent composition still takes skill, even if it is done on a laptop.