Are vintage guitars now just kudos/investment

guitars4you

richardhomer said:

One 50s example was presented as ‘totally original’. My friend examined it and pointed to the dark marks in the fingerboard - and looking Trigg in the eye - said, “Isn’t it amazing how Leo managed to get the wear marks underneath the finish?”

that might well be quote of the year !!!!!!!!!!!

guitars4you

Voxman said:

If I was rich & had money to burn I'd love an early 60's Strat, rosewood board in the metallic Lake Placid Blue that had gone more teal/turquoise, simply because I love that colour and it would just be nice to have something a bit special and rarer. Obviously, it would need to be 100% legit and I'd likely have to pay a 'premium' for it through a trusted specialist seller. 

But from a playability & tone perspective, would it actually be noticeably any better than a good custom shop Strat at maybe an 8th of the price - or would it even be as good? But as I simply couldn't afford it anyway its a moot point - whereas a CS Strat is something realistically achievable.    

2 or 3K is not easy money for most of us, but it does allow us access to a vintage spec'd guitar, that we can play on a daily basis without any silly worries about ownership[, theft etc etc - I dare say we have all passed similar comment, that a C/Shop is a cut above  a bad original vintage guitar - A good debate can be had by many as if it is as good as a good old 'un, but with so many negative factors and worries in place regarding purchasing a 8-16K original 60's Strat, I know I can sleep easy doing what I'm doing

jumping@shadows

guitars4you said:

richardhomer said:

One 50s example was presented as ‘totally original’. My friend examined it and pointed to the dark marks in the fingerboard - and looking Trigg in the eye - said, “Isn’t it amazing how Leo managed to get the wear marks underneath the finish?”

that might well be quote of the year !!!!!!!!!!!

Trigg’s failsafe for screamingly wrong guitars was ‘oh, it’s a prototype...’, much like the ‘67 Epiphone Al Ciola he sold as a ‘61 prototype, saying the long post ‘62 headstock and zero fret were ‘experimental pre production features’, plus the ‘60s reflector knobs, narrow nut and er...’67 serial number 

GuyR

jumping@shadows makes some great points re the potential of player grade vintage.
He also seems to turn out some fine looking and very interesting instruments. It is surprising how cheaply you can pick up the basis of a great guitar.
Earlier this year I bought a 62 jazz bass with maple changed fretboard, pickups and refin at auction. It played very well. One visit to bass gallery in Camden later for a new rosewood board, I have a fretless 62 jazz, original body & neck, and most hardware, for under £2k. To me, a better use of money than a custom shop and an instrument that performs above the level of financial outlay incurred. 
It's definitely not an investment, but player grade does offer a good bang for the buck. 

John_P

Great thread.    I’ve enjoyed reading so far and it’s of particular interest as I’ve half promised myself that as I have a bunch of guitars that cover anything I need to play, all future guitars will either be ones I’ve put together or older ones / have an interesting history.        

Some of the comments have highlighted that at some point there is a chance that prices will start to drop for all but the most sought after models but imo we are still a long way from that day.    
There has always been an issue with prices vs disposable income vs average age and I suspect that is worse now than it has ever been.   Mix in some music fashions of recent years and the desirability of old guitars with younger player probably isn’t what it used to be.  

I still want to move in that direction though and an old 335 style and a junior will find their way here next year.   I’m a player note than a collector though so condition isn’t too priority and hopefully means I can find something affordable and good to gig with.  

ourmaninthenorth

My interest in vintage guitars is an inverse proportion. 

Far too much piss in the well....

Funkfingers

Old guitars are not automatically "better" by dint of seniority. 

Poor manufacture is no barrier to interesting sounds.

Much of the desire for instruments is based on their appearance rather what they sound like or how well they fit the needs of a particular player.

It is always easy to delude oneself that some instrument that one does not currently possess will bring some improvement or novelty to one's musical efforts.

richh

There are great new and replica guitars available, and that's a good thing.  So nobody 'needs' a true vintage instrument.  But it's great when you find a guitar that you can really bond with, feels really special and has an element of rarity to it. Whether it is worth the price to you, is personal decision, and I'm sure there are ones on offer that are not particularly good.  But I don't see vintage Fender or Gibson guitars that are either all original or with the key components unchanged, as things that will lose money.  It often seems that we say today that these are over priced - then in 10 years time, its more the case that people will say that 'this was the one that got away' - if only they'd had the foresight to get it while it was still cheap!  Bit like the guys that got in on Bitcoin early, though I have no idea if that is going to hold value.

Zoolooter

I think in the long term vintage teles/strats/LP's etc will only go up in value. Sure, you will have dips in value here and there. But the basic fact remains that they are iconic and not made anymore, so there will always be a demand. Same as vintage/antique  cars, watches, etc. I personally think there will be a massive increase as well when the you have a strat that hits the 100 year mark.

prowla

My vintage instruments weren't vintage when I bought them...

Bridgehouse

This thread would make a great Dave Gorman "Found Poem"

jeztone2

meltedbuzzbox said:

jeztone2 said:

Growing up in the 1980's I understood why people paid more for an older one because the 70's guitars I played did feel inferior. So yes to me the idea I'd pay two grand plus for a 78 Strat is laughable. 

But the other thing is technique. Back in the 1970's and 1980's popular music was challenging to play. Whereas now it's all made on laptops. So does some stage school kid really get the nuances of why something is good in the first place? Metal and Djent seem to be evolving. But I never thought I'd be blowing away 22 year olds in indie bands at my age, simply because the musical bar has fallen so low.

Personally, I think the golden age of guitar making is now. Because people understand why things work. There are no accidents. I guess when the wood runs out its the problem.

I think you are missing the point of music if you think it's merits lie in technique. I want to hear good music, not someone fret wanking out a load of notes.
Now days how accessible is a guitar and amp compared to a laptop? 
Why learn an instrument that has limited scope when you can have everything via a midi keyboard and vst plugins.
Decent composition still takes skill, even if it is done on 

Every Breath You Take by The Police isn’t fret wanking  is it ? It’s a beautifully played song with great taster. That’s why it will endure.

Are Nile Rodgers guitar parts fret wanking? Errr No!

Still Life by Suede is another, no fret wanking there. It’s just classic songwriting.

If you picked out a lot of top 40 pop songs from 78-95. You ll find things that the average guitarist I’ve seen on todays toilet circuit will struggle to play. Nothing with even a solo in, just interesting chords or the odd weird time signature. 

I am cynical because when I was playing the London toilet circuit in 2016. I just saw people
more passionate about their haircut than the music itself.  Yet you say I’m missing the point?

Being as the current generation has internet access and I didn’t when I was learning. I thought there’d be this amazing new music being created. Instead you’ve got people nicking their dads Sabbath Albums. Nothing wrong with that, but does the U.K. need another shambling indie band? 

Metal seems to have escaped that was merely my observation. 

Strangefan

jeztone2 said:

meltedbuzzbox said:

jeztone2 said:

Growing up in the 1980's I understood why people paid more for an older one because the 70's guitars I played did feel inferior. So yes to me the idea I'd pay two grand plus for a 78 Strat is laughable. 

But the other thing is technique. Back in the 1970's and 1980's popular music was challenging to play. Whereas now it's all made on laptops. So does some stage school kid really get the nuances of why something is good in the first place? Metal and Djent seem to be evolving. But I never thought I'd be blowing away 22 year olds in indie bands at my age, simply because the musical bar has fallen so low.

Personally, I think the golden age of guitar making is now. Because people understand why things work. There are no accidents. I guess when the wood runs out its the problem.

I think you are missing the point of music if you think it's merits lie in technique. I want to hear good music, not someone fret wanking out a load of notes.
Now days how accessible is a guitar and amp compared to a laptop? 
Why learn an instrument that has limited scope when you can have everything via a midi keyboard and vst plugins.
Decent composition still takes skill, even if it is done on 

Every Breath You Take by The Police isn’t fret wanking  is it ? It’s a beautifully played song with great taster. That’s why it will endure.

Are Nile Rodgers guitar parts fret wanking? Errr No!

Still Life by Suede is another, no fret wanking there. It’s just classic songwriting.

If you picked out a lot of top 40 pop songs from 78-95. You ll find things that the average guitarist I’ve seen on todays toilet circuit will struggle to play. Nothing with even a solo in, just interesting chords or the odd weird time signature. 

I am cynical because when I was playing the London toilet circuit in 2016. I just saw people
more passionate about their haircut than the music itself.  Yet you say I’m missing the point?

Being as the current generation has internet access and I didn’t when I was learning. I thought there’d be this amazing new music being created. Instead you’ve got people nicking their dads Sabbath Albums. Nothing wrong with that, but does the U.K. need another shambling indie band? 

Metal seems to have escaped that was merely my observation. 

Wow rose tinted glasses much? You played the London circuit, every area had /has a different music scene, and now the talent is insane. I know as I still play in it.   

Everything was not better in the past. 

jeztone2

I’m talking about stuff in the top 40. my point being top 40 stuff in the past was perhaps more challenging and rewarding to play than it is now from a guitar playing perspective. Not fret wankery, but at least that you wouldn’t die of boredom onstage. 

Most of the newer music I like has been stuff like Karnivool or Jazz Stuff like Thundercat or Trombone Shorty. 

Perhaps that insane talent isn’t getting record deals then? Do you have any links? 

Strangefan

jeztone2 said:

I’m talking about stuff in the top 40. my point being top 40 stuff in the past was perhaps more challenging and rewarding to play than it is now from a guitar playing perspective. Not fret wankery, but at least that you wouldn’t die of boredom onstage. 

Most of the newer music I like has been stuff like Karnivool or Jazz Stuff like Thundercat or Trombone Shorty. 

Perhaps that insane talent isn’t getting record deals then? Do you have any links? 

Granted yes the top 40 is not the pinnacle of Music, for our kind if music,   in the past it was the benchmark for popularity and that used too come with talent, these days it's money and sales led so talent comes second to inventing a catchy tune and the "personality and looks of the singer etc  plus following popular trends. I doubt musicians (the instrumental kind)  don't really look at the top 40 for inspiration we get that from other avenues.

 But don't forget talent is subjective these days, programming a synth or producing a modern sing is a total different ball park to what it used to be,

GuyR

Returning to the subject of vintage guitars for a moment, many instruments are now at an age where some of the components have reached the end of their functional life; pots, tuners, frets & pickup windings being some of the most wear- prone.
 In years to come, the vintage guitar-buying fraternity will have to accept more in the way of changed or repaired components if they are to continue to enjoy playing them. The 100% original instrument will become more of a rarity and perhaps more of a liability, as the inevitability of some sort of component failure looms with the consequent modification or relegation to museum piece.
It will be interesting to see the degree of modification/repair deemed acceptable to purists in future.

adampeter

Personally i believe some vintage guitars are vastly undervalued.
Long term anything with Fender/Gibson etc on the headstock i think will make you money, but over the short term you could lose if you sell
Bottom line is they aint making vintage guitars anymore

Strangefan

adampeter said:

Personally i believe some vintage guitars are vastly undervalued.
Long term anything with Fender/Gibson etc on the headstock i think will make you money, but over the short term you could lose if you sell
Bottom line is they aint making vintage guitars anymore



They are.... Every day we just wont appreciate them as such for about 35 years  

Voxman

guitars4you said:

Voxman said:

If I was rich & had money to burn I'd love an early 60's Strat, rosewood board in the metallic Lake Placid Blue that had gone more teal/turquoise, simply because I love that colour and it would just be nice to have something a bit special and rarer. Obviously, it would need to be 100% legit and I'd likely have to pay a 'premium' for it through a trusted specialist seller. 

But from a playability & tone perspective, would it actually be noticeably any better than a good custom shop Strat at maybe an 8th of the price - or would it even be as good? But as I simply couldn't afford it anyway its a moot point - whereas a CS Strat is something realistically achievable.    

2 or 3K is not easy money for most of us, but it does allow us access to a vintage spec'd guitar, that we can play on a daily basis without any silly worries about ownership[, theft etc etc - I dare say we have all passed similar comment, that a C/Shop is a cut above  a bad original vintage guitar - A good debate can be had by many as if it is as good as a good old 'un, but with so many negative factors and worries in place regarding purchasing a 8-16K original 60's Strat, I know I can sleep easy doing what I'm doing

+1 - which is why maybe one day when I have some spare cash burning a hole in my pocket I'd treat myself to a Custom Shop strat - but sadly, even that's beyond me for the next few years!  

JayGee

GuyR said:

jumping@shadows makes some great points re the potential of player grade vintage.
He also seems to turn out some fine looking and very interesting instruments. It is surprising how cheaply you can pick up the basis of a great guitar.
Earlier this year I bought a 62 jazz bass with maple changed fretboard, pickups and refin at auction. It played very well. One visit to bass gallery in Camden later for a new rosewood board, I have a fretless 62 jazz, original body & neck, and most hardware, for under £2k. To me, a better use of money than a custom shop and an instrument that performs above the level of financial outlay incurred. 
It's definitely not an investment, but player grade does offer a good bang for the buck. 

Player grade is where it’s at for me.

All the mojo, all the character, you can tweak it to work properly (either as it was meant to be or tastefully hot-rodded) without feeling guilty, and often very reasonably priced (especially if it’s something a bit unfashionable). And heck, if I’m buying an old guitar I want it to look like it’s got a few stories to tell!

Eldest Son(@Mattg) has an early-to- mid ‘60s Melody Maker (bought on the classifieds here). It looks a bit scruffy, has quite a few non-original parts, including a pair of Curtiss Novak’s beefed-up pickups which give P90-ish tones in the original form factor. After a bit of attention from an expert (Robbie Gladwell - actually it wasn’t too shabby before, but Matt wanted to try to make the original vibrato set-up work properly) it plays beautifully, sounds fantastic, and makes you feel a bit special just holding it for a total cost that undercuts most of Gibson’s regular output (Studio and Tribute series included let alone the custom shop stuff). What’s not to love about something like that?