Are vintage guitars now just kudos/investment

FelineGuitars

I am strongly of the opinion that the "must be 100% original is something used by buyers to knock a few hundred quid off whatever you are selling - unless it is 100% original  with stupidly worn/low frets in which case they want a discount because they are going to have to spend a small fortune having a refret done.

This is more what @peteri and I were discussing.

I am also in favour of great guitars being played.

Guitars can be beautiful and considered like works of art but their real magic is from playing them and making truly great sounds . 
As a repairman I will always respect customer wishes and have sensible conversations about "vintage value" because my customers live in a world where those things need to be considered if resale is a possibility..

But I also want to see guitars play so well that you couldn't bear to be parted with it, even for a day, so getting the best from a guitar is what constantly drives me.

peteri

Agreed - Jon, you put it better than me! Sorry

ourmaninthenorth

Some of the finest "untouched" guitars, from the "Golden Era" are highly prized by collectors and players alike. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Price, whilst being a major inconvenience to us all, is something I'd suggest is also at the forefront of all our minds. Which of us would re-fret a £400,000 'Burst, if the accepted prevailing wisdom dictated that it'd damage it's resale value by £x? One would be a brave man to do that, even if said 'Burst played like a bucket of spanners without the work. 

That aside, back on planet Earth, and with a distinct separation of monetary issues, I play guitars that I can afford...never got that collectors bug, nor the dough to satisfy it; which isn't the same as the obsession which I do have.

I need guitars that are the best they can be, to play, and as said above, to not want to part with. If that means working on hitherto untouched guitars, so be it. 

I have on loan at the moment a 57 Special, refin, re-fret, changed electrics - everything else original. It is one of the best sounding and playing guitars I've ever had the pleasure to play...it is absolutely gorgeous. Whomever has done the work has done it really well, and sympathetically, rather than detracting from the guitar, they've added to it. 

Let the "curators" curate, we can all enjoy what they're doing, and take those joyous guitars for what they are. Similarly we can simply enjoy what we're doing in the "trenches" 

Freebird

I'm looking forward to my '89 Les Paul surging in value in a just over a year's time 

Strat54

Bonamassa refrets his vintage guitars where necessary including Bursts, and he's had quite a few pickups rewound too. Reading through comments here I was thinking what was it that compelled me to pursue vintage guitars back when I was 20, and I remembered it was because the Strats and Tele's back then looked nothing like the instruments I'd lusted over in the hands of the greats and in what few books/magazines were available.
 I didn't want a shiny yellow blonde Tele with a dodgy modern bridge and ugly tuners.....I wanted that faded butterscotch blackguard Tele that Roy Buchanan played and that sunburst Strat featured on a double spread poster in Guitar (US) mag. I didn't think about tone and old wood back then, I just knew the guitars available new from Fender didn't look quite right, not to my eyes at least. Not even the early Fullerton AVRI's satisfied my needs, they too looked somehow adrift (and they were). There were no accurate Custom Shop guitars and certainly no Relics. Its fair to say I became obsessed with the vintage guitar, I worked hard and saved up for them....took some time but I got there. I was lucky, I bought when they were still several thousand and not tens of thousands. I'm not obsessed about total originality, and yes I've done the refret bit too.
 There's a hell of a lot of players with vintage instruments and they are still buying too. David Grissom has a '54 Strat and recently bought a '61 refin Tele. Greg Martin bought a '52 Tele last month. Eric Johnson is still buying vintage and Robben Ford bought an early Goldtop last month. Its not about kudos and none of these guys are thinking about investments, its about feel, vibe and tone. I have some great newer guitars but there's just something special about a good old guitar. 

jpfamps

Any guitar with frets so worn it can't be played is not original; it wouldn't have left the factory like that.

I think there is often a fear that the refret will be done badly, but that is a different issue.......

ICBM

jpfamps said:

Any guitar with frets so worn it can't be played is not original; it wouldn't have left the factory like that.

Exactly!

It really is the utter height of stupidity to believe that it's better to leave a nice old guitar virtually unplayable, or that a refret will "ruin" it. No guitar which has been played and the frets worn that much will be in perfect condition *anyway* even discounting the frets, so there is no reason to treat the frets as sacred either.

jpfamps said:

I think there is often a fear that the refret will be done badly, but that is a different issue.......

This certainly used to be a real and justified fear. These days, there are far more real experts who can do a job so good that the only real way you can tell they aren't the original frets is because they're too shiny and unworn.

JezWynd

jpfamps said:

Any guitar with frets so worn it can't be played is not original; it wouldn't have left the factory like that.

Anyone refusing to consider a refret in those circumstances has ceased to think of it as a musical instrument and is seeing only dollar bills.

GavRichList

The refret thing baffles me. I’ll certainly have my Jaguar done when the time comes, and that can’t be far away in the big scheme of things.

 I have no doubt that there are CS guitars out there that I’d find a relentless pleasure to play, but I haven’t played enough of them to know for sure. What I do know however, is that nothing feels quite like my 62 Jaguar to me. Pleasure is all subjective anyway, and has many levels; it’s beautiful to play and sounds superb - if part of my enjoyment of it comes from also knowing it’s 55 years old, then so be it. At the time I bought it, it cost me the price of a CS, and I certainly wouldn’t swap it for anything. It wasn’t bought as an investment, it was bought because it was the guitar that I’d wanted since I was 16. I’m glad I bought it when I did too; as mentioned above, it’d be impossible for me to buy it now given the state of the £ vs $ and we’re only 3 years down the line... and then there’s CITES. 

My dreams of a 62 Jazzmaster partner seem very far away. 

Philly_Q

ICBM said:

jpfamps said:

Any guitar with frets so worn it can't be played is not original; it wouldn't have left the factory like that.

Exactly!

It really is the utter height of stupidity to believe that it's better to leave a nice old guitar virtually unplayable, or that a refret will "ruin" it. No guitar which has been played and the frets worn that much will be in perfect condition *anyway* even discounting the frets, so there is no reason to treat the frets as sacred either.

jpfamps said:

I think there is often a fear that the refret will be done badly, but that is a different issue.......

This certainly used to be a real and justified fear. These days, there are far more real experts who can do a job so good that the only real way you can tell they aren't the original frets is because they're too shiny and unworn.

What if you get a refret which isn't just a restoration?  I won't go so far as to suggest a re-radiused board, but let's say bigger frets or stainless steel frets.  Would that devalue a vintage guitar more than a like-for-like refret?

guitars4you

Philly_Q said:..

This certainly used to be a real and justified fear. These days, there are far more real experts who can do a job so good that the only real way you can tell they aren't the original frets is because they're too shiny and unworn.

What if you get a refret which isn't just a restoration?  I won't go so far as to suggest a re-radiused board, but let's say bigger frets or stainless steel frets.  Would that devalue a vintage guitar more than a like-for-like refret?

Many tend to chose larger frets rather than original style smaller vintage frets, especially on a Fender - playing styles have changed so much since the 50's and 60's + many prefer thinner strings, lower actions etc etc - I would not encourage a flatter board, but I see no issue choosing larger frets if that suits you - along the lines of 6105, 6150 etc so a sensible parameter and I see no issues - If it instantly feels nice to play then surely that enriches your initial wow factor that goes with the potential of owning a nice vintage guitar

ICBM

That guitar I keep going on about - the ‘56 Les Paul Custom I should have bought - had been refretted with modern medium-jumbo frets. Not stupidly huge ones, but far better than the original tiny ‘fretless wonder’ ones which are almost unplayable for modern styles. Given that the rest of the guitar was not pristine I would say it probably increased the value. It certainly made it a better musical instrument.

On the other hand the ‘69 Bigsby Tele I had which had been refretted with something approaching railway rails probably devalued it - it no longer really felt like a Tele.

GuyR

It seems peculiar to me not to refret a guitar that needs it, or to make any other repair necessary to maintain satisfactory function. In particular, having very low frets would increase the wear on the fingerboard, which is a much more fundamental thing to replace, so a refret when required would seem a very prudent course of action. I recently had my '66 Tele refretted. To me sticking with the original spec fretwire, sourced from Fender, was important, but I understand it might not be to others.

I have bought 3 vintage guitars/basses in the last 18 months. If I am paying what I consider full money, they have to be;

1 A great player - what's the point otherwise?

2 100% original finish - plenty of wear is fine

3 Original pickups - I haven't bought any with rewinds, but would if the price reflected it.

That said, I'm always happy to buy a modified guitar if the price is too tempting

Philly_Q

So it sounds like it largely comes down to the personal preferences of the current owner - and the next buyer.  I guess someone who's going to play it wants it playable... someone who's going to collect it perhaps just wants it as original as possible.

I never really contemplate dabbling in the vintage market, but of course I look at the pictures, and when I see some guitars with frets which look like little flat strips of tinfoil stuck on the fretboard I just think "I wouldn't be able to play that".

jimmyguitar

Try and find a SG Standard from the 60s for sale in the UK right now

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/401437902584
This one’s nice! 

guitars4you

GuyR said:

It seems peculiar to me not to refret a guitar that needs it, or to make any other repair necessary to maintain satisfactory function. In particular, having very low frets would increase the wear on the fingerboard, which is a much more fundamental thing to replace, so a refret when required would seem a very prudent course of action. I recently had my '66 Tele refretted. To me sticking with the original spec fretwire, sourced from Fender, was important, but I understand it might not be to others.

I have bought 3 vintage guitars/basses in the last 18 months. If I am paying what I consider full money, they have to be;

1 A great player - what's the point otherwise?

2 100% original finish - plenty of wear is fine

3 Original pickups - I haven't bought any with rewinds, but would if the price reflected it.

That said, I'm always happy to buy a modified guitar if the price is too tempting

would tend to agree with that - any variations of the above points, mainly 2 and 3 should have a severe impact on the price as it becomes a players grade guitar and nothing wrong with this as an option - especially when the likes of @jumping@shadows has put his considerable skills to use

I bet your Tele found a new lease of life, certainly regarding playing performance, after the re-fret

peteri

jimmyguitar said:

Try and find a SG Standard from the 60s for sale in the UK right now

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/401437902584
This one’s nice! 

Nice price too!

jimmyguitar

peteri said:

jimmyguitar said:

Try and find a SG Standard from the 60s for sale in the UK right now

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/401437902584
This one’s nice! 

Nice price too!

Yes, about right for an unfaded one with PAFs and a ‘best offer’ listing.

peteri

Agreed - hadn't noticed the PAFs, makes sense.

Anyone know the owner?

peteri

Just for fun - and an example of the 'bad end'.

https://applink.reverb.com/item/7521249-fender-telecaster-1970

Safe to say, that's not genuine wear on the back!