Home Brewing (Complete Noob)

RedRabbit

A possible solution I didn't consider before would be a pressure barrel - essentially a large plastic barrel with a tap on it.  You'd carbonate/condition as you have been doing in the bottle but on the whole batch at once and then serve from the barrel once carbonated.  The tap is raised from the bottom so you should pull a minimal amount of sediment while pouring.  There are issues though -

• they are prone to leaking (either gas or liquid) if not set up 100% properly, 
• as sold they tend to serve beer with a lot of foam (they can be modded to help with this though), 
• you need one an appropriate size for the batch you are brewing (harder to carbonate when there's more headspace in the barrel), 
• unless you have a fridge that you can keep the whole barrel in you'll be restricted to drinking room temp beer. 

Personally, I don't like them but you might be able to make one work for you.  Probably worth some research.

My preference is kegging but it's not a cheap solution.  My set-up is a chest freezer modified to have 4 serving taps and gas lines in, 4 kegs (3x19l, 1x10l), CO2 tank with primary regulator and secondary regulators for each keg and the temp control equipment.


Not tried any Muntons kits but I believe they are well regarded.  The homebrew "twang" is something that's associated with liquid malt extract so all kits of this sort may have it to some degree.  That said, it's not something I recall noticing when I did kits.  Kit instructions always used to promote a short fermentation and I don't have much faith in the yeast that's supplied with some kits.

Best advice I can give is to find some reviews (preferably from experienced brewers) and possibly be prepared to buy a sachet or 2 of dried yeast.  Crossmyloof have a few yeasts suitable for a hazy IPA and The Malt Miller will have loads - Lallemand's Verdant is a personal favourite for the style.  

RedRabbit

A quick browse of the homebrew forum I visit reveals very positive reviews of the Muntons kit.  Some of the regulars are calling it "the best kit ever" so i think you'll be fine with it as it comes.

stufisher

I haven't brewed my own beer in decades and I drink more wine than beer nowadays ... but I applaud proper brewing and beer drinking so well done to you.

My only contribution to edify would be wrt to PET bottles. I worked for Metal Box plc in the mid 1980s, when the PET food and beverage packaging sector took off.

Whilst there is considerably more choice 4 to years on, the basic chemistry and materials science haven't changed. PET bottles, whilst not impermeable like an aluminium beverage can, do offer a perfectly acceptable barrier to moisture and vapour transmission.

Ambient bottling and storage conditions are important, so the amount of CO2 in the beer and your storage temperature can play a part in pressure-loss leading to flat beer.

However, black bits in the liquid are more likely to be bio-mass and not polymeric so my suspicion is that there may have been a contaminant somewhere at the bottling stage or dead yeast residue.

Sterile PET bottles, aseptically filled and stored at say 10C, will preserve beer in top condition for a year or more IIRMC.

Final question ... were the PET bottles clear or pigmented (e.g. translucent green or translucent brown) ... because they offer a better UV barrier to sunlight?

Let me know if you need any scientific intel and I'll see what I can dig up for you.

Best,

Stu

RedRabbit

@stufisher thanks for the info on the PET bottles.  Do you know if/how much storage temp affects PET?  I suspect that most brewers using PET bottles will be storing above 10c and transferring them into a fridge before drinking.

The change in colour seems to point to oxidation and, I think, if it was from oxygen introduced at bottling the earlier bottles would have shown signs of it as well.

duotone

RedRabbit said:

A possible solution I didn't consider before would be a pressure barrel - essentially a large plastic barrel with a tap on it.  You'd carbonate/condition as you have been doing in the bottle but on the whole batch at once and then serve from the barrel once carbonated.  The tap is raised from the bottom so you should pull a minimal amount of sediment while pouring.  There are issues though -

• they are prone to leaking (either gas or liquid) if not set up 100% properly, 
• as sold they tend to serve beer with a lot of foam (they can be modded to help with this though), 
• you need one an appropriate size for the batch you are brewing (harder to carbonate when there's more headspace in the barrel), 
• unless you have a fridge that you can keep the whole barrel in you'll be restricted to drinking room temp beer. 

Personally, I don't like them but you might be able to make one work for you.  Probably worth some research.

My preference is kegging but it's not a cheap solution.  My set-up is a chest freezer modified to have 4 serving taps and gas lines in, 4 kegs (3x19l, 1x10l), CO2 tank with primary regulator and secondary regulators for each keg and the temp control equipment.


Not tried any Muntons kits but I believe they are well regarded.  The homebrew "twang" is something that's associated with liquid malt extract so all kits of this sort may have it to some degree.  That said, it's not something I recall noticing when I did kits.  Kit instructions always used to promote a short fermentation and I don't have much faith in the yeast that's supplied with some kits.

Best advice I can give is to find some reviews (preferably from experienced brewers) and possibly be prepared to buy a sachet or 2 of dried yeast.  Crossmyloof have a few yeasts suitable for a hazy IPA and The Malt Miller will have loads - Lallemand's Verdant is a personal favourite for the style.  

Thanks @RedRabbit ;
I will take a look and see what is available. You mean stuff like this? https://brew2bottle.co.uk/collections/home-brew-pressure-barrels
I also found this Fermzilla product that David Heath reviews, but doesn’t have a tap.

https://youtu.be/JykRowKgXxw

Atm I am happy bottling, just would be good to eliminate any problems. So that I am not pouring infected beers away. 

duotone

RedRabbit said:

A quick browse of the homebrew forum I visit reveals very positive reviews of the Muntons kit.  Some of the regulars are calling it "the best kit ever" so i think you'll be fine with it as it comes.

That’s great to know. If it’s successful, I may well work my way through their whole range! https://www.muntons.com/brewkit_type/muntons-flagship-range/  After the Hazy IPA, there are still American Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, West Coast IPA & Milk Stout to try!

My only regret is that I have had in sitting in my backroom (with curtains always closed) for about 9 months. Hopefully the malt extract won’t deteriorate in that time. I have checked & the yeast (Safale S-04) it comes supplied with is in date https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/safale-s-04-11-5g/

RedRabbit

This is the sort of pressure barrel I was thinking about - https://brew2bottle.co.uk/collections/home-brew-pressure-barrels/products/10ltr-economy-barrel-2

The David Heath review is a fermentor that can be pressurised.  You can serve from them as well by putting gas and beer posts on the lid and, essentially, treating it as a keg but it's not really what they are intended for.  I've got the smaller brother to the fermentasaurus which is pretty much the same but doesn't have the trub trap at the bottom (think it's called the all-rounder or something like that).  It's a fantastic fermenter to add to a kegging setup as it allows oxygen-free transfer from the fermenter to keg - I'm not sure how beneficial a fermenter like this would be to a bottling setup.




To be honest, I think it's a bit soon to start completely rebuilding your set-up.  You've had a couple of poor beers from a batch you had previously enjoyed.  I'd be looking at ways to reduce exposure to oxygen using your current equipment and making sure your sanitisation is up to scratch.  It's hard to avoid oxygen completely when bottling but plenty of people can produce fantastic bottle-conditioned beers.

What container are you using for fermentation?  What's your bottling process?  Are you using a syphon to get the beer from the fermenter or has it got a tap?  Have you got a bottling wand?  How are you cleaning everything, bottles included?

duotone

stufisher said:

I haven't brewed my own beer in decades and I drink more wine than beer nowadays ... but I applaud proper brewing and beer drinking so well done to you.

My only contribution to edify would be wrt to PET bottles. I worked for Metal Box plc in the mid 1980s, when the PET food and beverage packaging sector took off.

Whilst there is considerably more choice 4 to years on, the basic chemistry and materials science haven't changed. PET bottles, whilst not impermeable like an aluminium beverage can, do offer a perfectly acceptable barrier to moisture and vapour transmission.

Ambient bottling and storage conditions are important, so the amount of CO2 in the beer and your storage temperature can play a part in pressure-loss leading to flat beer.

However, black bits in the liquid are more likely to be bio-mass and not polymeric so my suspicion is that there may have been a contaminant somewhere at the bottling stage or dead yeast residue.

Sterile PET bottles, aseptically filled and stored at say 10C, will preserve beer in top condition for a year or more IIRMC.

Final question ... were the PET bottles clear or pigmented (e.g. translucent green or translucent brown) ... because they offer a better UV barrier to sunlight?

Let me know if you need any scientific intel and I'll see what I can dig up for you.

Best,

Stu

Thanks @stufisher ;

I never had a problem with pressure loss, they still pour fine with a decent enough head. I just checked my back room (where I store all my glass & PET bottled beer & it’s currently 22 degrees Celsius in there. From there the bottles get put in the fridge for a couple of days to chill before drinking.

It’s the first time (in 5 brews I have done) that I have noticed anything floating in the glass when poured. I’m sure it’s down to an error I made, somewhere along the line. Usually the sediment just sits at the bottom of the bottle, once it’s been chilled in the fridge. I plan on watching David Heath’s “Brewing Bad, Common Mistakes Made By Homebrewers” before I attempt my next brew.

The bottles are these exact ones & translucent brown in colour: https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/coopers-amber-pet-bottles/

duotone

RedRabbit said:

This is the sort of pressure barrel I was thinking about - https://brew2bottle.co.uk/collections/home-brew-pressure-barrels/products/10ltr-economy-barrel-2

The David Heath review is a fermentor that can be pressurised.  You can serve from them as well by putting gas and beer posts on the lid and, essentially, treating it as a keg but it's not really what they are intended for.  I've got the smaller brother to the fermentasaurus which is pretty much the same but doesn't have the trub trap at the bottom (think it's called the all-rounder or something like that).  It's a fantastic fermenter to add to a kegging setup as it allows oxygen-free transfer from the fermenter to keg - I'm not sure how beneficial a fermenter like this would be to a bottling setup.


To be honest, I think it's a bit soon to start completely rebuilding your set-up.  You've had a couple of poor beers from a batch you had previously enjoyed.  I'd be looking at ways to reduce exposure to oxygen using your current equipment and making sure your sanitisation is up to scratch.  It's hard to avoid oxygen completely when bottling but plenty of people can produce fantastic bottle-conditioned beers.

What container are you using for fermentation?  What's your bottling process?  Are you using a syphon to get the beer from the fermenter or has it got a tap?  Have you got a bottling wand?  How are you cleaning everything, bottles included?

Totally agree @RedRabbit No point throwing money at the solution. I think it must be an error on my part & using better equipment while I’m making the same mistakes, would be pointless. 

What container are you using for fermentation? 

https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/30-litre-fermenting-bucket-with-accessories/

What's your bottling process?  

Transfer from my fermenting bucket using the auto siphon into —> https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/25-litre-fermenter-complete-with-tap-and-airlock/ & this is where I add the brewing sugar & give it a slow mix —> Connect the bottling wand to the tap —> Fill sanitised bottles & add the sanitised cap.

Are you using a syphon to get the beer from the fermenter or has it got a tap?  

Yes, this one: https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/auto-siphon-56cm/

Have you got a bottling wand?  

Yes 

How are you cleaning everything, bottles included?

I use this for the fermenters & siphons/hoses etc.: https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/vwp-cleaner-steriliser-100g/

& this for the bottles & caps: https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/chemsan-no-rinse-foaming-sanitiser-5l/

I just poured out the bottle of black Pilsner Belgian Wit that was in the fridge into a glass & I could not notice anything (black specks) floating this time. Bu the sediment is definitely more dark grey than normal, although I guess it could be because it’s a dark Pilsner that I brewed so it could darken it?

stufisher

Thanks for response @duotone ; ... I've read a brief summary of where the bevpack industry is nowadays ... essentially they've consolidated/tweaked established manufacturing from the 80s and made it more profitable, but the science behind barrier coatings, films, laminates and oxygen scavengers hasn't changed.

From what I've read, the Cooper's bottles you use are about as good as it gets so I'm confident that there's no need to change to glass.

So, going full circle brings me back to the impact of temperature. Moisture vapour transmission rates (MVTR) are directly proportional to temperature ... high T means higher CO2 loss. You'll be able to look up these data/charts online if you ever need to but I'd say just keep it all simple:

- Properly sterilised bottles

- Bottle at lowest T that's practicable

- Store in the dark at lowest T possible

- Note all of the above in a logbook

The scientist in me suggests that you might wish to get a tray of 50ml / 100ml sampling bottles and fill/label them when you bottle the beer (date, T, beer type, any other recipe info)

You can then store them and check them after say 3 months, 6 months and monthly thereafter. This will enable you to establish which beers store best/last longest under your storage conditions/process etc. 

The normal bloke in me says ... nah ... can't be arsed with that ... just drink the stuff and forget about everything else 

Not trying to preach or teach you egg-sucking ... hope something might be useful for you though. 

Enjoy your brew(s).

Best,

Stu

RedRabbit

duotone said:

Totally agree @RedRabbit No point throwing money at the solution. I think it must be an error on my part & using better equipment while I’m making the same mistakes, would be pointless. 

What container are you using for fermentation? 

https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/30-litre-fermenting-bucket-with-accessories/

What's your bottling process?  

Transfer from my fermenting bucket using the auto siphon into —> https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/25-litre-fermenter-complete-with-tap-and-airlock/ & this is where I add the brewing sugar & give it a slow mix —> Connect the bottling wand to the tap —> Fill sanitised bottles & add the sanitised cap.

Are you using a syphon to get the beer from the fermenter or has it got a tap?  

Yes, this one: https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/auto-siphon-56cm/

Have you got a bottling wand?  

Yes 

How are you cleaning everything, bottles included?

I use this for the fermenters & siphons/hoses etc.: https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/vwp-cleaner-steriliser-100g/

& this for the bottles & caps: https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/chemsan-no-rinse-foaming-sanitiser-5l/

I just poured out the bottle of black Pilsner that was in the fridge into a glass & I could not notice anything (black specks) floating this time. Bu the sediment is definitely more dark grey than normal, although I guess it could be because it’s a dark Pilsner that I brewed so it could darken it?

Okay, you can trust TMM stuff to be decent quality so I doubt there are any issues there.

The only bits I'm not a huge fan of are

1.  Auto-syphons - loads of folk use them so it could just be me but I struggle to use one without it "glugging" during transfer which is a sure sign of pulling through oxygen and mixing it with the beer.  If possible, I'd be looking at attaching a tube to the tap on the fermenting bucket to transfer into the priming bucket.  I'd also make sure that the tubing is sitting on the bottom of the priming bucket during transfer to minimise splashing at that point.

2. VWP as a sanitiser - I know it says it's a cleaner and steriliser but I believe it needs a long soak in the solution for it to be effective.  I used it as a sanitiser when I first started brewing and everything had a homebrew/sherry flavour to it.  Could be a coincidence but I've never had that since switching to chemsan/starsan/etc.  Once you've cleaned with the VWP I'd suggest rinsing (be thorough!) and then sanitising with the chemsan.  You don't need to fill the bucket - just mix around 5l of solution in the bucket, put the lid on and give it a good shake to make sure it covers the whole surface.  I always do this when I start brewing and leave it until I'm ready to fill the fermenter but I believe chemsan and similar only need a short contact time to be effective.  The used chemsan solution can be kept and reused for quite a while as well so it's not quite as expensive as it first seems.  For what it's worth I've moved away from VWP for cleaning as well.  I now use sodium percarbonate.



Glad to hear you've not floaters in the pilsner and I wouldn't worry about the sediment being grey.  Dead yeast turns grey anyway and the beer will certainly influence the colour.

duotone

Thanks @RedRabbit Really appreciate all of this advice. Will let you know how it all goes, the next brew day. I will definitely follow suit next time I order some brewing consumables & get some sodium percarbonate.

hywelg

As @RedRabbit ; says above, VWP is a cleaner and needs rinsing . I use PBW in hot water for cleaning but then follow up with no rinse Starsan before bottling/kegging. Its very easy to include enough oxygen into your beer during siphoning to oxidise it. If you are worried about oxidation crush a camben tablet into the beer before bottling and stir (very gently).

One downside of plastic bottles is that you don't get the oxygen scavenging of the liners of the crimp metal tops for glass bottles. I only use plastic for decanting from keg to drink within a couple of days max.

Plastic kegs are fine but eventually you will end up using CO2 bottles and Cornie kegs, so start thinking about it now.

duotone

Thanks @hywelg ;

I will definitely try the crushed ‘camben tablet’ method on my next brew day and let you know how it goes.

The Cooper’s PET bottles I have been using do say ‘The lids contain an Oxygen scavenging liner.’ https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/coopers-amber-pet-bottles/

hywelg

duotone said:

Thanks @hywelg ;

I will definitely try the crushed ‘camben tablet’ method on my next brew day and let you know how it goes.

The Cooper’s PET bottles I have been using do say ‘The lids contain an Oxygen scavenging liner.’ https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/coopers-amber-pet-bottles/

But I'll bet that only works on first use. With crown caps you use new every time.

duotone

Extract kit Brew day went well & was nice & quick. The Muntons ‘Hazy IPA’ is in the fermenting bucket, cooling down until I can add the yeast later this evening.

If everything goes to plan I should be able to:
Bottle on 21/7/22
Drink on 5/8/22

victorludorum

Sorry if someone's already asked a similar question, but I'm thinking about getting one of those stainless fermenting vessels and wondered what the scoop is. I'm looking at a smaller 13 litre; are they worth the money?

RedRabbit

At a bit of a loose end today so I've knocked up a recipe to brew.  Stocks are getting low so it's going to be a kveik IPA for quick turn around.

I've got a pack of dried hornindal I got off ebay a while ago and I'm going to pair it with a hop blend from CML called tropical england - can remember what's in it but, as the name suggests, it's all UK hops with plenty of fruity flavours.  Hoping they will pair well with the hornindal.  I'm going to ferment at 35c - first time I've really used kveik this hot.

RedRabbit

victorludorum said:

Sorry if someone's already asked a similar question, but I'm thinking about getting one of those stainless fermenting vessels and wondered what the scoop is. I'm looking at a smaller 13 litre; are they worth the money?

I've not got any stainless steel fermenters so I'm not sure I can really comment but, for low-scale homebrewing, I'm not sure I see the point other than to look pretty.

What advantages there are really depends on how high up the price range you are looking.  If it's essentially just a stainless steel bucket I think the only advantage over plastic is cleaning.  Plastic can get scratched and the scratches can harbour nasties that can cause infection.  The really high-end stainless stuff adds various ports and fittings that are appealing but I think you've got to be taking things pretty seriously to "need" a fermenter like that.

If you're looking to spend a bit on improving your fermentation process, I'd be looking at temperature control before fancy fermentation vessels.  If you've already got temp control sorted then I'd be tempted to look at higher-end plastic fermenters (fermzilla etc) but these are still only really worth it if you'll make use of the additional functionality.

I've moved away from buckets as a fermzilla allows for oxygen free transfers to a keg but other than that I'd still be perfectly happy brewing in a plastic bucket.

duotone

I bottled the Muntons ‘Hazy IPA’ into 30 PET bottles today. I have 28 (500ml) bottles in the Coopers boxes, in the dark back room, curtains closed etc. I transferred the beer into my bottling bucket with the hose on the bottom as @RedRabbit suggested & then used my bottling wand to fill the bottles. Tried something different this time for carbonation, I used Mangrove Jacks Carbonation Drops https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/mangrove-jacks-carbonation-drops/ By not using the auto-siphon & not stirring in sugar, I’m confident that this beer should be a success.

I also have 2 in the fridge. Will drink one later this week & then try the other next week & see if it has improved or not.