Football - Euro 2020 Championship

Legionreturns

Shrews said:

p90fool said:

@Shrews maybe we should all reconvene when they've beaten Sweden without breaking sweat. 

Well, we've got more of a chance of beating Sweden in the second round, than we do of beating France, Germany or Portugal.  We have more of a chance against one of those in St.Petersburg in the quarters when their hard games start to take a toll.

So, yeah, we'll see how it plays out. Hopefully we' finish 2nd with a bore draw and no bookings or injuries against the Czechs and a well controlled 1-0 boring, boring England against the Swedes. 

I hope not, for the sake of football fans everywhere. 

Shrews

Legionreturns said:

@Shrews that's hilarious! 

I admire your optimism! 

It's good to be optimistic!

I can't think of one good reason (with regards to winning an international tournament) why we would want to beat the Czechs next game.

- Confidence maybe, but I think the players will have bought into the Southgate masterplan anyway and won't be heads down crying about how useless they are. More likely that right now they're really relaxed and playing on their X-boxes

- To appease the critics. maybe, but I don't think Southgate needs to give a Mike Bassett 'If' speech just yet. Just qualify and then beat the Swedes. Ideally without bookings, injuries or over-exertion. His biggest fear is probably the usual hype that comes when England put in a great performance against someone, when the country, and consequently the players, get too excited.

- To avoid getting tonked by the Czechs and goal difference preventing qualification even on four points

Can't thing of another reason? And I doubt they're good reasons anyway, with the last being unlikely.

UnclePsychosis

Imagine being so upset at failing to beat Scotland that you had to invent a fantasy scenario where it was deliberate :-D

Don't really buy into the whole Scotland-England rivalry but the salty tears from some England fans really do taste delicious today. 

Legionreturns

UnclePsychosis said:

Imagine being so upset at failing to beat Scotland that you had to invent a fantasy scenario where it was deliberate :-D

Don't really buy into the whole Scotland-England rivalry but the salty tears from some England fans really do taste delicious today. 

I'm sure you're right about the salty ones, but I'm far from the only english man (small e deliberate; I'm not really into jingoism!) that is a realist, here or elsewhere. 

Either it was a genius masterplan in the early stages, or Scotland were by far the better side and England were shite. 

Southgate just isn't that clever or imaginative!  

DefaultM

I think it's an interesting idea and a tactic I'm sure has been used to great effect in the past. Whether it's true in England's case though who knows. As has been said it presumes that all the England players have a complete mastery and control of the games, and that they can win or draw as and when required.

rze99

France just drew. No doubt it was their plan all along to not win that game. Tactical genius. 

TeleMaster

BintyTwanger77 said:

Gassage said:

A comment made on the match last night:

"Like Pink Floyd decades beforehand, it seems all Scotland needed to do was add a fella named Gilmour to their ranks to turn them from an incoherent mess into a coherent and impressive unit" 

(18 year old midfielder Billy Gilmour was man of the match on his national debut)

To repeat what I said on “the other FB”, Scotland have only lost once in their last 18 games, so that bloke’s talking utter arse gravy. Talented side, not given enough credit. Need to learn how to finish chances for the Croatia game, though.

In their last 18 games prior to the Euros they've lost 4, not 1. Belgium, Russia, Slovakia and Israel. And including the Euros they lost to Slovakia, Israel and the Czech Republic. 

https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scotland/scotland-squads/scotland-mens-a/fixtures-results/

munckee

So as we didn’t concede and France did we are better than France and are now favourite for the tournament?

Teetonetal

Really enjoyed the France Vs Hungary game. But all the way through it felt like France would score and they made some lovely plays. 

That's the difference for me. At no point last night did I think England could win that game.

AlbertC

Teetonetal said:

Really enjoyed the France Vs Hungary game. But all the way through it felt like France would score and they made some lovely plays. 

Yeah, it was an entertaining game 

Teetonetal said:

That's the difference for me. At no point last night did I think England could win that game.

 The French supporters  looked happy at the end because they could see the endeavour from the team throughout on the pitch. This is what too often seems to be missing from England hence they get booed off,

Shrews

rze99 said:

France just drew. No doubt it was their plan all along to not win that game. Tactical genius. 

Yep, you got it!

Just like Deschamps was hammered by the French media in the World Cup for 'just doing enough', in the group games he is conscious that to win a tournament a team can't have too many hard games early on. If they won today it was a bonus but a draw is fine (although unlikely his countrymen will see it that way, how quick they forget!).

Here's their World Cup 2018 results

Beat Australia 2-1
Beat Peru 1-0
Drew with Denmark 0-0

Then suddenly they sprang to life in the next round to beat a very poor Argentina who had been surprised by a superb Croatian side in the groups.

They then cruised through against Uruguay 2-0 and beat the Belgians 1-0 in the semis.

On the day of the final they played Croatia who had won their group with maximum points, then won their 2nd round and quarters on penalties, and then England in extra time. Three exhausting matches.

The result was predictable.  A knackered side vs a side who were peaking at the right time through great match and tournament management, however unpopular that might have been in the early stages.

There are no prizes for performing like world beaters in the early stages. The only thing important is to win that opening game as that gives you options with how you manage the tournament, especially with three sides going through (in the main)

The proof will be in the pudding with England.  Let's see!  I'm more worried that the Czech's will play dreadful so England finish top. That'll really scupper Gareth's plans, although maybe it will be Portugal now not France after all!

Shrews

Teetonetal said:

Really enjoyed the France Vs Hungary game. But all the way through it felt like France would score and they made some lovely plays. 

That's the difference for me. At no point last night did I think England could win that game.

Yep, at no point did I think England would win the game either, likewise there was no point I felt Scotland could win the game either. Both sides had chances, England had more possession, no side was shockingly bad, one side (Scotland) played better than they should on paper (rankings). 

Scotland won't win the tournament, England might win the tournament as long as they don't over exert in the early games or pick up bookings and injuries.  Just do it the way tournament winners do it and then we have a chance.

MagicPigDetective

England were 2nd in the group in 2016. Perhaps they were happy to draw with Slovakia in the last group game to get an easy draw with ‘minnows’ Iceland in the 2nd round.... no need to say anymore. Meanwhile, Wales top the group and reach the semifinals! Yes they were knackered by then but put in heroic performances, no one in Wales was complaining. Porugal were lucky to get past the goup stage, I doubt it felt easy or less strenuous for them. 

Anyway, point is, it’s easy to apply a narrative retrospectively! And fair play, I admire you putting a positive spin on your team, that’s natural. 

Legionreturns

Yep. Tournament management definitely worked for Brazil in 1970... oh wait 

p90fool

Shrews said:

 England might win the tournament as long as they don't over exert in the early games or pick up bookings and injuries.  

If you're watching the Germany-Portugal game right now and saw the Hungary-France game earlier and still think England are anywhere near the standard required to win this tournament then you're drunk on jingoism.  

axisus

Shrews said:

Had the Scots scored yesterday we would've drawn 1-1, had they scored 2 it would've finished 2-2, had they scored 3 we'd have scored 3 in return! 

And there we have England fans in a nutshell. An incredible sense of entitlement ...

munckee

axisus said:

Shrews said:

Had the Scots scored yesterday we would've drawn 1-1, had they scored 2 it would've finished 2-2, had they scored 3 we'd have scored 3 in return! 

And there we have England fans in a nutshell. An incredible sense of entitlement ...

I think that’s not a very fair or accurate assessment of the views of most England fans. 

Hattigol

Shrews said:

I will repeat what I said on the last page, because this is about winning a tournament, not just winning one game in the group stages.

We do not want to finish top of this group! 

Anybody who thinks it's a good idea to finish top of this group has the same mentality of every other England manager who have attempted a tournament win and failed.  The reason we haven't got out of second gear yet is because Southgate doesn't want us to get out of 2nd gear. Had the Scots scored yesterday we would've drawn 1-1, had they scored 2 it would've finished 2-2, had they scored 3 we'd have scored 3 in return! We don't want the hard games now, the hard games will be the last three. The quarters, semis and final. Now we just need to finish 2nd.

Meanwhile, three of our likely rivals: France, Portugal and Germany will have had three tough games before we get to meet them in those last three games. Just Spain and Italy to have concerns about. France may get through to the final because of their class, but will be too fatigued to win a final. Portugal and Germany will be out in the quarters or semi's for the same reason.

I hope we draw 0-0 against the Czech's, Kane starts on the bench and we play as laboured as we did against the Scots and Croats. Then I hope we notch it up a gear to beat the Swedes, albeit still laboured and hardly breaking sweat, and then get ready to perform in the last three games. Boring, boring England!  But just as we wan it...and need it!

Hammering any team now going full throttle, looking flashy, in world beating style, does nothing for the ultimate goal which is to win the tournament, not to win the group.

Portugal won it in 2016, they finished third in their group, in the new (current) format, which had provided the tournament with an additional game.

Portugal 1 Iceland 1
Portugal 0 Austria 0
Hungary 3 Portugal 3 (Hungary shocked, it nearly didn't going to plan, Ronaldo had to break sweat)

First or second they'd have faced England or Belgium. 3rd or 4th ranking in their '3rd place ranking' would've meant Wales or Croatia (they got Croatia). It was perfect tournament management.

Teams who win these tournaments aim to ease through the group stage, with no over-exertion, no injuries and no bookings, aiming to get a team they should beat in the 2nd round. Then crank it up for the three games that count. 

And yet here we are in England knocking our players and management for doing exactly that, even though as a country we have more reason than any other side to manage our placings effectively because of the widespread belief amongst pundits that our players play in the toughest league in the world, with the most games.

Whilst it is true that winning the group would see us play at Wembley in the 2nd round (but against France, Portugal, Germany) a 2nd place against Sweden (likely) will be played in Copenhagen. The winner of that goes to Russia, where it's unlikely we will play Russia and likely we play France, Portugal and Germany. In the other scenario we would go to Rome and likely play France, Portugal or Germany. In either scenario France, Portugal and Germany will have played three or more hard games by then. We have a better chance of beating them in the quarters, than we do the 2nd round.  And I guess Southgate would rather our chances against them in St.Petersburg rather than Rome. Get through those and it's Wembley for the semis and final (as long as Boris doesn't upset UEFA)

Come August we won't remember the snore draw against the Scots or even the game to come against the Czechs. We may not even remember beating the Swedes in the 2nd round. We will however remember the quarters, semis and finals.  

And for sure we will remember Southgate's tournament management ... or Boris fcking it up for us!

Don't take this the wrong way but what an absolute load of old bollocks. 

Teetonetal

axisus said:

Shrews said:

Had the Scots scored yesterday we would've drawn 1-1, had they scored 2 it would've finished 2-2, had they scored 3 we'd have scored 3 in return! 

And there we have England fans in a nutshell. An incredible sense of entitlement ...

Oh god, please don't think that Shrews opinion is representative of anyone.

Bridgehouse

Nice to see Spain forcing a tactical draw so they have no chance of topping the group. 

That’s the right strategy, no?