So it's a NO.. so what happens now?

Phil_aka_Pip

siremoon said:

they have no intention of delivering the pledge.

couldn't have put it better myself. Like I said, best quality BS

digitalscream

Phil_aka_Pip said:

siremoon said:

they have no intention of delivering the pledge.

couldn't have put it better myself. Like I said, best quality BS

Why? The majority of it is in the Tories' best interests! @siremoon is correct...either the promises are delivered and the Tories get a stronger showing in Parliament (which is likely to happen if the Tories win the next election, because it's a several-year process) or Labour win the next election and try to back out so they don't end up crippled, thus losing support.

OK, so that's a simplified view of it, but I can't see a third potential outcome.

jd0272

IanSavage;356075" said:

equalsql said:

Listening to the radio it seems no one is clear exactly what the last minute promises made by 'Dave'actually are..



You can almost hear Westminster back-peddling already.

So what happen now?





I unload the breeze blocks and mortar from the van and cancel my roadtrip to Carlisle.

My Laugh of the Day!

Fretwired

siremoon said:

Cameron has played this well - immediately announcing task forces to look at more for Scotland and dealing with the West Lothian issue - and backed Labour into a corner.  Tackling West Lothian plays well with Tory voters so he has no need to lie about more for Scotland and I think the English tories would generally accept the quid pro quo there.  Labour have made a shed load of promises to Scotland which English voters will not let them deliver without tackling the West Lothian issue.  If Labour didn't realise this then they are stupid.  Assuming they are not stupid then they either made the pledges knowing that both issues had to be tackled or they have no intention of delivering the pledge.

I disagree .. he's making promises he currently can't keep as he's in a coalition and Clegg won't back him and Labour aren't too keen. He's also being cynical as he's now making the next election all about an EU referendum and English only parliament - Labour have just said they don't support Dave's plans so if you want out of the EU and you're own parliament vote for Dave. Nice distraction from the state of the NHS and the economy.

I'd have much preferred he'd spoken to the other party leaders and agreed a coordinated plan to ensure progressive change rather than play party politics.

VimFuego

problem is (as I see it) all 3 (well, all 2 plus Clegg) will be so emboldened by their "victory" that they'll see no need for any change. Will be interesting to see how the referendum is framed, tricky things referendums as you can never be sure how they'll swing, which is why we haven't had one for, what, 40 years.

Clarky

ICBM said:

Hopefully people in England and the government will pay attention to what the likes of John Redwood have said. I never, ever thought I would say that...

I thought he was spot on in what he was saying on the telly last night..

Redwood is my local MP.. I've met / chatted via e-mail with him a few times [when I've wrote a snottly letter to my MP.. lol..].. I've always found him to be very switched on, totally down to earth, very in touch with what us ordinary folk think is important to us, and that he actually genuinely gives a crap..

if he was running for Prime Minister I reckon I'd vote for him..

Fretwired

VimFuego said:

problem is (as I see it) all 3 (well, all 2 plus Clegg) will be so emboldened by their "victory" that they'll see no need for any change. Will be interesting to see how the referendum is framed, tricky things referendums as you can never be sure how they'll swing, which is why we haven't had one for, what, 40 years.

Agree with that ... how about a Cameron/Salmond alliance? Both have an interest in having a good deal for England and Scotland respectively and both will face Labour as their main opposition in the forthcoming elections. Labour won't want to lose their Scottish MPs at Westminster. Interesting times.

mart

siremoon said:

... Tackling West Lothian plays well with Tory voters ...

There's logic in a lot of what you say, but my instinct disagrees with you about the point I've quoted there. My feeling is that the majority in England feel very emotionally attached to Westminster as it currently is, and replacing it with an English parliament would be repugnant to them. Even though the change would be logical, they wouldn't want it, precisely because it's a change. In a sense they are very conservative with a small c. And, of course, tory voters tend to be conservative with both small and big c's.

I'll be amazed if West Lothian ever gets dealt with while Scotland remains part of the UK.

mart

VimFuego said:

problem is (as I see it) all 3 (well, all 2 plus Clegg) will be so emboldened by their "victory" that they'll see no need for any change. ...

Yep, that's my impression too.

Phil_aka_Pip

digitalscream said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

siremoon said:

they have no intention of delivering the pledge.

couldn't have put it better myself. Like I said, best quality BS

Why? The majority of it is in the Tories' best interests! @siremoon is correct...either the promises are delivered and the Tories get a stronger showing in Parliament (which is likely to happen if the Tories win the next election, because it's a several-year process) or Labour win the next election and try to back out so they don't end up crippled, thus losing support.

OK, so that's a simplified view of it, but I can't see a third potential outcome.

I think Vim & Fretwired are more accurate. There is no real need to deliver anything.

Clarky

mart said:

siremoon said:

... Tackling West Lothian plays well with Tory voters ...

There's logic in a lot of what you say, but my instinct disagrees with you about the point I've quoted there. My feeling is that the majority in England feel very emotionally attached to Westminster as it currently is, and replacing it with an English parliament would be repugnant to them. Even though the change would be logical, they wouldn't want it, precisely because it's a change. In a sense they are very conservative with a small c. And, of course, tory voters tend to be conservative with both small and big c's.

I'll be amazed if West Lothian ever gets dealt with while Scotland remains part of the UK.

I don't agree with this... I reckon the English [the actual people] have been on the crap end of too much for too long now..

to the point where you cannot be outwardly "English and proud" without being accused of being a NAZI.. where the rest of the UK have various benefits that the English don't.. and all this UKIP interest is as clear a demonstration of the English crying out for change as is the Scots voting to break away.. I think there is an increasing feeling amongst many English of "what about us?? you give them this.. and those that.." the "them" and "those" are essentially the rest of the UK and the minorities.. I think I'm seeing a rising tide of English discontent..

VimFuego

I think there is a groundswell of discontent in England, which is separate from the political parties in Westminster, but I could just be unconsciously channelling the comments sections of the Telegraph. I know that, in my social circle (hippies and self sufficiency nuts) there's a strong demand for more devolved powers in England.

frankus

problem with wanting devolved powers is they'll cherry pick the ones to help their mates buying the NHS (which the whole referendum thing was a smoke screen for) and the guys fracking your back garden. MPs seem more accountable to the party fundings and such..

VimFuego

/\ /\ agree, which is why a proper consultation process needs to take place. They will give us freedom only with the greatest  reluctance.

ICBM

Clarky said:

I thought he was spot on in what he was saying on the telly last night..

Redwood is my local MP.. I've met / chatted via e-mail with him a few times [when I've wrote a snottly letter to my MP.. lol..].. I've always found him to be very switched on, totally down to earth, very in touch with what us ordinary folk think is important to us, and that he actually genuinely gives a crap..

if he was running for Prime Minister I reckon I'd vote for him..

I'm not sure I'd go that far . But certainly - having previously thought of him as a very right-wing Eurosceptic who if I remember rightly caused some trouble for John Major - he came across as thoughtful, intelligent and basically right.

So the referendum doesn't have to be divisive . I just hope my cynicism about Westminster politics is not once again proved correct.

musicegbdf

I also agree with some of the comments about the ground swell in England. UKIP have started a lot of discontent by taking up the issues that real people on the ground are worried about. Too long too many politicians of all parties have ignored what the people have real concerns about. An open book on migration now becoming a political bomb.

The Scottish Referendum , has opened a lot of people eyes. Mine included. I knew the Scots /Welsh /NI seem to have got a better deal when I started looking at uni places for my kids.. and care for my 91 year old mum. It dod not beleive it at first , but there it is.

What we should have is a fair system for the whole of the UK. What really got my goat this morning was a SNP lady saying the real issues include the North/South divide. ! WTF  What divide.?

I suggest this snotty lady try coming and seeing the "real" South. I my eyes there should be no , divide and it is human nature that the grass is greener elsewhere ....

A lot of people now understand more about the Bartlett Formula and the West Lothian agreement, and the party leaders (all of them) will find a groundswell of voters demanding that there should be equity to all , whether they are English /Scottish/Welsh/Irish , we are as one.

I actually accept there has to be "regional" rather than "national" variations for the well being of all. If I in London have to subsidise a community in the Outer Hebrides or the Falkland Isles , that is fine by me, but it must be equitable.

I can see UKIP strring this up as well.....

ICBM

musicegbdf said:

I actually accept there has to be "regional" rather than "national" variations for the well being of all. If I in London have to subsidise a community in the Outer Hebrides or the Falkland Isles , that is fine by me, but it must be equitable.

Absolutely. Fairness is essential, which is why the Barnett Formula must go - I would welcome Cameron breaking the ridiculous promise on that. Spending should be based on current need, not figures from the 1970s.

I am sure most Scots with any sense of natural justice would agree, as most do about the West Lothian question.

kuro

ICBM said:

I am sure most Scots with any sense of natural justice would agree, as most do about the West Lothian question.


It's a puzzle to a lot of us why Scots MPs get to vote on purely English issues.

ICBM

kuro said:

It's a puzzle to a lot of us why Scots MPs get to vote on purely English issues.

Because it benefits the Labour Party, so they intentionally never fixed it after devolution. What really puzzles me is that the Tories and Lib Dems - neither of whom it benefits, particularly the Tories - have not taken the opportunity to fix it in the last four years, when they could have done even against the wishes of the same Scots MPs! Hopefully they will now, before there's any chance of Labour getting in again and it being 'forgotten' about.

Fretwired

musicegbdf said:

I can see UKIP strring this up as well.....

I think Big Dave Cameron woke up this morning and got a get out of jail card - I might have to eat humble pie if it transpired he's played some clever long game [some how I doubt it]. He can now see a way of removing Ukip and giving Labour and the Lib Dems a bad time while forging an unlikely alliance with the SNP. Salmond can campaign as a Scottish only party and Cameron can campaign as an English only party whilst Labour and the Lib Dems will need to keep as much of the status quo as possible to protect their seats in Scotland.

Salmond can do a deal with Cameron for full home rule in Scotland and say goodbye to Scottish MPs at Westminster and the Barnett formula whilst Cameron delivers an English only parliament [Wales and NI get more powers]. Labour become split, the Lib Dems become irrelevant and Ukip are left behind. Dave wins a big majority in 2015 as Scots vote for the SNP and English voters go Tory. Cameron and Salmond agree said deal and the world changes. No more Tories in Scotland [their party can rebrand and row their own boat] and Salmond can boast he rid Scotland of the Tory party ...

Dave was quick out of the blocks this morning ...