So it's a NO.. so what happens now?

musicegbdf

We need the same for England, demanding equity. It is not right that young English students start life with a debt of around 35k aged 21 ,where the others do not.
We also need to stop this expectation of university education for all, and bring back state aided apprenticeships and technical qualifications. I hear there is currently a shortage of bricklayers !

The shame is the political games have already started ...

Phil_aka_Pip

musicegbdf said:

We need the same for England, demanding equity. It is not right that young English students start life with a debt of around 35k aged 21 ,where the others do not.
We also need to stop this expectation of university education for all, and bring back state aided apprenticeships and technical qualifications. 

^ THIS IN SPADES !!! ^

(shame I can give you only one wis)

LastMantra

Fretwired said:

Too many unanswered questions about currency, defence, EU membership made 55% of people vote no. Home rule could give Scotland pretty much independence with the exception of defence and foreign affairs whilst retaining the best parts of being in the union - stable currency, defence, EU membership etc. Make it fair for all and everybody wins.

Those were the main reasons I voted yes.

ICBM

LastMantra said:

Those were the main reasons I voted yes.

Same here, or at least two of them.

littlegreenman

I'm immensely proud of us all that the UK has shown the whole World that such an important choice regarding the split of an existing nation, either way - Yes or No, can be done peacefully with pieces of paper.

Not a single shot was fired, and no lives were lost.

That's a first, even for the UK.

chillidoggy

And the producers of Buckie will no doubt be having a little celebration, too.

johnnyurq

ICBM;357219" said:

Signed. I will also write to my MP - although he is Labour and so that may not achieve a lot, Miliband is already backtracking as fast as possible because Labour has a party self-interest in not addressing the constitutional issues before the next General Election. Although my vote is currently up for grabs - Lib Dem last time...

Same here and we should all try and use any energy from the referendum to show the fuckers we want better everywhere in the UK.

Thanks for the links @historyisjunk.

If that happens then that would be a great legacy for the whole saga.

Rupert Murdoch tweeted this today.

"Alex Salmond's sudden resignation makes him most honest politician in Britain. Actually he seems to have changed country's future."

Considering he hates AS his reaction there surprised me.

But like @ICBM and I am sure others Labour can go and kiss my shiny metal ass if they think they are getting my vote any day soon if ever again. No reform from them or honouring their pledges and getting back to a semblance of a left of centre party then they can take a running fuck to themselves.

So where does that leave me to stick my vote (fnaar fnaar), Tory, Lib Dem and Labour can GTF, so independent or SNP it is then.

I see there is supposedly a campaign to get Andy Murray's mum voted off Strictky first for having the audacity to vote yes. Petty fuckwittery or what?

johnnyurq

Phil_aka_Pip said:

musicegbdf said:

We need the same for England, demanding equity. It is not right that young English students start life with a debt of around 35k aged 21 ,where the others do not.
We also need to stop this expectation of university education for all, and bring back state aided apprenticeships and technical qualifications. 

^ THIS IN SPADES !!! ^

(shame I can give you only one wis)

Hey guys you are preaching to the converted up here and I suspect for most Scots.

We need to drop any animosity now it is over and concentrate on making our politicians sit up and take notice, then give real change that suits the various home nations/regions. Equity has always been the goal and if it can be done over the whole UK then so much the better, you cannot blame us for grasping the rare oppurtunity when offered it and if we can get unity then who knows what will come off the back of it all.

If we could have gotten here a few administrations ago I doubt the referendum would have been necessary or ever happened.

Thing is we need to stop bickering and bitching at each other to actually acheive it otherwise we are back in tne trap of letting them and a few twats on either side keeps us distracted whilst business as usual goes on politically speaking.

Not sure if the current emnity is a temporary knee jerk reaction to the whole process and I sincerely hope that it is, otherwise we will all be the worse off for it in the long run and maybe there will be a few refernda all over the UK to come.

Lets not make the same silly old mistakes and let our masters/rukeres/media pull the wool over our eyes and engender apathy along with fake bones of contention to keep us busy and sidelined.

As @littlegreenman says it is a lesson on how to conduct these matters and apart from the usual noisy and hateful twats on all sides we can be rightly proud of how Scotland and the rest of the UK conducted themselves.

Even the wee stooshie by the Unionists/Loyalists and some Yes folks rising to it last night cannot take the shine off it all. But I suspect that incident had more to do with old sectarian/old firm nonsense and only the referendum in part used as an excuse, shameful and needs driving out of anwhere it exists.

The Unionists had sectarian images on some of their flags as more than likely the other lot had too and is what makes me believe that is the case.

Anyhow lets all get the process moving and all voice our wishes and opinions and hold them to a UK wide set of changes. The world is watching and if they welch then I would hope the international community would react accordingly.

I think that the UK would lose prestige and credibility if the current backpedalling turns into a blocking of the reforms, it would to my mind gaurantee the breakup of the Union and probably acrimoniously too which cannot be good for anyone.

I guess we need to wait and see and hope it all proceeds apace, although the timetable may be a tad compressed given the impending GE. As long as an agreement in kind can be drafted then cause for quiet optimism maybe not unfounded.

musicegbdf

Johnny no animosity from here. Ant comments I have made have been defensive as there seemed to be attacks on London in particular.
In fact I feel Scotland has done us all a huge favour and got this out in the open. I feel all the main party leaders have been awful. You are lucky you have Snp. If we in England vote for a National party we are branded Racist and Bigot.
The vote is over and as others have said we can all be proud to show the world true democracy.
What has to happen now is a real shakeup so there is true equity,whilst at
the same time giving support to our fellow Brits in deprived areas.
Let's hope it does and we can extend it to the EU. As right now I feel GB is better together and out of the EU.
I fear all we have coming is a fight over the West Lothian question as each party has their own agenda and the other real issues will be swamped .
I do know there os a petition system on the government website and if there are enough signatures it has to be discussed in the commons . I know I have signed a few. I am not clever enough to word one,but I am sure someone will so will watch out so I can sign.
And hey my father was born in Inverness and all of my fathers family go back over a thousand years in Scotland. I recall when I was eight being taken to the gathering of the Clans and presented to the laird...So I have a lot of Scots blood in my veins.

Fretwired

johnnyurq said:

I see there is supposedly a campaign to get Andy Murray's mum voted off Strictky first for having the audacity to vote yes. Petty fuckwittery or what?

@johnnyurq Just a few nutters .. the Times ran a piece supporting him and loads of British tennis fans still support him. You'll always get a few either side of the border who use social media to spread hate and intolerance. Whoever made the Dunblane comment actually galvanised people into supporting Andy - vile comment. And last time I checked we live in a free country in which people are entitled to voice an opinion.

Fretwired

Fretwired said:

johnnyurq said:

I see there is supposedly a campaign to get Andy Murray's mum voted off Strictky first for having the audacity to vote yes. Petty fuckwittery or what?

@johnnyurq Just a few nutters .. the Times ran a piece supporting him and loads of British tennis fans still support him. You'll always get a few either side of the border who use social media to spread hate and intolerance. Whoever made the Dunblane comment actually galvanised people into supporting Andy - vile comment. And last time I checked we live in a free country in which people like Andy are entitled to voice an opinion.

johnnyurq

musicegbdf;357693" said:

Johnny no animosity from here. Ant comments I have made have been defensive as there seemed to be attacks on London in particular.
In fact I feel Scotland has done us all a huge favour and got this out in the open. I feel all the main party leaders have been awful. You are lucky you have Snp. If we in England vote for a National party we are branded Racist and Bigot.
The vote is over and as others have said we can all be proud to show the world true democracy.
What has to happen now is a real shakeup so there is true equity,whilst at
the same time giving support to our fellow Brits in deprived areas.
Let's hope it does and we can extend it to the EU. As right now I feel GB is better together and out of the EU.
I fear all we have coming is a fight over the West Lothian question as each party has their own agenda and the other real issues will be swamped .
I do know there os a petition system on the government website and if there are enough signatures it has to be discussed in the commons . I know I have signed a few. I am not clever enough to word one,but I am sure someone will so will watch out so I can sign.
And hey my father was born in Inverness and all of my fathers family go back over a thousand years in Scotland. I recall when I was eight being taken to the gathering of the Clans and presented to the laird...So I have a lot of Scots blood in my veins.

@musicegbdf

Wasn't directed at you or Phil just passing comment on what I hope is a media led ramoing up of any discontent, I realise it is most likely a minority. But we are being fed the prospect that it is a wider issues. like I say I hope not and that we can all get on with effecting a UK wide change.

Also just underlining that apart from our minority of nutters most Scots would have no issues with the appraoch hopefully on the cards. If we take the West Lothian thing there are a lot of Scots who prior to the referendum were unaware of its implications and would support its removal. If only so it cannot be levelled against us rather than at the Labour party who are the ones that abuse it, not forgetting that if the Tories had a similar advantage they would defend it too.

The EU thing is really for another day and thread and not relevant too muych for the current process, we need our own houses in order before tackling that divisive, acrimonious and thorny issue.

An intereeting point re the West Lothian question (which needs sorting along with any current devolved parliament) as the union is now back on so to speak how would it work for as an example Scots MP's who are Westminster and live and represent an English constituency. Surely they would be expected to mirror the wishes of their actual constituents, and over and above party politics and whips.

The same would apply to any MP living and sitting in a different home nation than their birth one for want of a better way of saying it.

As I understand it that is what we have at present and unless this changes after the process has been settled and agreed on we would need to decide whether that remains or only MP's indigent to that home nation can vote in issues affecting only them and their home rule body.

I do not know the answer and really just musing how that would be dealt with in the longer term, it may get complicated and leave it open for more discontent about. For example again take a Scottish MP who stands in the English new setup (post new system) in an English constituency, how practically will that work without any rankles.

As I say I have no clue but personally I think if an MP sits and lives in any home nation they should get to vote on behalf and for their constituents there.

With regard to the SNP I really think it is silly to make them analogous to a fair few of the headline grabbing nationalists down your way. They are extremely moderate and fuel no hatred apart from some eejits who are very much in the minority, besides they are much smaller in numbers even pro rata for a smaller population.

The usual suspects down your way are far more vocal, better organised, better funded and are not shy about making hateful statements. So sorry not the same, pleae bear in mind I am most definitely not a Nat and it seems the misundertanding of what the SNP endures even after the whole referendum debates.

If we look at even UKIP who are mild in comparison (no less troublesome in some ways) to the BNP, EDL and the myriad various groups who appeared at the last EU elections. I do not buy the UK part of their name at all as is evidenced by some of the hyperbole and rhetoric coming from Farage and co, I really despair if they get more traction and have a good showing at the general election.

I wish those who level all kinds of stuff at the SNP would look to their own arguably nastier nationalists and see how they stack up to each other. A moderate less hateful group of nationalists I don't think would suffer the same stigma that some currently do only my opinion mind so no basis in fact.

We shall see soon I guess how the whole process will evolve and hope we can all get stuck in to get the best deal for the whole UK now we are not binning the union, best of a bad job and all that jazz.

The focus should now be off just the Scottish dimension and widened as is the way froward in my view.

Where about in Inverness were your family based?

Just curious as my family have been here a long time and I have lived here all my life bar Uni and working away.

johnnyurq

Fretwired;357701" said:

johnnyurq said:



I see there is supposedly a campaign to get Andy Murray's mum voted off Strictky first for having the audacity to vote yes. Petty fuckwittery or what?












@johnnyurq Just a few nutters .. the Times ran a piece supporting him and loads of British tennis fans still support him. You'll always get a few either side of the border who use social media to spread hate and intolerance. Whoever made the Dunblane comment actually galvanised people into supporting Andy - vile comment. And last time I checked we live in a free country in which people are entitled to voice an opinion.

@Fretwired

That is ironic considering you in recent weeks have sought to tar and implicate the majority of Scots with the actions of a few "nutters". If you don't believe me go back and reread your recent ish posts in the other thread in SC.

But you see I wasn't suggesting it was any more than that and if you can show me where I did you can have a banana.

To expand I called those who may actually do this the petty fuckwits not all English folks and yes I am concerned that the voting numbers needed to do so does represent a worrying amount which may grow if hyped and blown out of all proportion. Think the Ross/Brand hysteria and on a more trivial level the X factor bollocks.

We have seen in the recent past how a media and social media led campaign can gather huge momentum, sometimes good sometimes bad.

That is my worry.

But if the media and other public figures are condemning it then good and I hope that may scotch it (see what I did there
) and nip it in the bud. That sort of behaviour is not needed at this time from whatever quarter if we are to stop bitching at each other and get the change we all desire for our part of the UK.

So hence why I stand by the fact that anyone from anywhere indulging in this sort of behaviour are indeed hateful twats, yes we have free speech (which I defend vigorously) but sometimes shouldn't be given credence by our popular media and other parties with their various agendas.

ICBM

What jonny said. There is narrow-minded, borderline racist nationalism based mostly on origin, and there is moderate nationalism which is based on self-determination irrespective of origin. As I'm sure you all know by now I am English by birth (actually part Welsh by family origin), but I now support Scottish "nationalism", because I live, work and raised a family here and I want a bigger say about how my part of the world is governed. I would now probably describe myself as 'Scottish', but never as a 'Scotsman', if that makes sense! (Subtle difference I know.) I also still feel British, and I do support the idea of a looser union even though I voted Yes. I would like to have seen that negotiated between two or preferably four equal separate nations, where any joint agreement has to by consensus, but if it can be achieved by 'devo max' then it will do - the risk is the UK parties reneging on the promises they made.

By definition I also support the idea of English nationalism of the same kind - there can't be one without the other, and a lot of people in England seem to have finally woken up to this. The West Lothian question must be answered - it's a basic unfairness which almost everyone can see it to be, and frankly if Labour will not agree to resolving it before the election then the Tories and Lib Dems must force it through - that's what a parliamentary majority is for. Contrary to what some people have said it's not a complicated matter either - there is a clear list of devolved powers for the regional assemblies, and if the system in Westminster can't cope with checking who is who for a vote then it's not fit for purpose. There is no need to link it to any other reforms either - it's an existing problem which would still need fixing even if there are no other changes. The good thing is that it's now quite clear that Labour are trying to block it for their own selfish reasons.

Drew_TNBD

You guys are acting like cunts

VimFuego

setting up an "English parliament" would be a fairly easy and quick, devolving powers to the region would a much more complex undertaking. Do we even know there is a desire for this in England? What regions are we talking about? Is the infrastructure in place to chose who would sit on these assemblies? To manage the day to day business of running these regions? What powers would we devolve? To decide all this in the 6 months before electioneering starts would be one hell of an undertaking.

ICBM

I agree, that part of it does not need to be decided yet. They're completely separate issues. Devolution for Scotland does not automatically imply devolution for English regions. In fact, in exactly the same way as England did not get a vote on Scottish independence, it's purely a matter for England and so actually specifically should *not* be linked in my opinion.

musicegbdf

Johnny , sorry if there is a misunderstanding. I would never compare Snp to Edl or Bnp. In fact I blame Edl and Bmp for making any pride in being English seem to imply you a bigot. I actually admire what Snp have done for us all in a strange way ,it has brought the issue onto the table.
My family I understand originate from the Black Isle. I am a Munro (not the hill)....

johnnyurq

Drew_fx;357814" said:

You guys are acting like cunts

@Drew_fx

I would love you to expand upon that statement if it isn't a jokey troll that is.

Otherwise you are doing what you profess to dislike others doing as in leaving a contentious brown fish in the thread and pissing off.

It adds nothing useful to any aprt of the debate/discussion and comes across a bit cunty if you don't mind me saying (well even if you do mind me saying).

If it is some jokey thing I have misunderstood then feel free to ignore my ravings.


@ICBM and @VimFuego

Agreed the timescale is somewhat tight and kneee jerks need avoiding to get it as right as possible from day one. As long as the commitment to following through is kept to then the timetable is less important, some kind of agreement in kind would be nice as a show of good faith and intentions.

Interesting to see whether there will be an appetite for a devolved body (or even bodies if regional) for England. Certainly the last time it was floated it seemed to be unwanted.

The important thing is that it is a matter for the English electorate and others should bow out and let that take its course. Done properly one would hope it is unequivocal and helps stop any further rankles.


@musicegbdf

No worries mate and again I wasn't meaning that you or Phil were saying that just that it has been a constant theme throughout the referendum which got way worse in the last few weeks.

For sure we can only hope some good comes from all the nonsense and negativity from all.

I do a lot of work over the Black Isle and my old band palyed many gigs in pubs and fancy village halls etc, always good craic.

I know a great many Munros there as well as in and around Inverness so I may know some of your rellies LOL.

Do you get up for family visits (if still here) or hols?

If so next time we could meet up for a beer or twelve and a jam, always good to meet fellow forumees and guitfiddle players.

musicegbdf

No worries. Not been since I was a child,keep meaning to.
My dad was one if five children (all dead now). Only one stayed in Scotland. So I have three cousins, not sure if they are still there, and have two cousins in Canada.
Got me thinking I should go back to the family roots