The F1 thread

Cols

markr76 said:

I do. Been there 12 years since the honda days. I worked for Jordan gp before that.

Wow!  That must’ve been a rollercoaster ride.

stickyfiddle

I had a tour of Brackley in the BAR days (actually about 2 days after they got banned for the "please weigh us with 10kg of fuel onboard" thing), which I'm guessing looks a fair bit different now!

Looks like I’ll be in Singapore for the GP weekend, but leaving just before the race

Might try and get in for quali though, although mostly because the Killers are playing. Need to look into logistics!

sweepy

Horner would go to Renault if Newey went with him 

Fretwired

sweepy said:

Horner would go to Renault if Newey went with him 

Ricciardo was going to sign for Red Bull and switched at the 11th hour - what does he know? Horner was asked about a switch to Renault as team principle live on TV and didn't really give a convincing answer. I suspect its something that could happen further down the line. I wonder if, as someone has said earlier, the fact Aston Martin are pulling out of developing an engine as the regs are unlikely to change means Red Bull want to sell the team. That said would another manufacturer come into the sport if the regs remain the same - they'd have to play catch-up like Honda which is a big ask. Honda and Renault are on the back foot compared to Mercedes. Of the two Renault seems to be doing a better job. Will Honda eventually quit?

I have no idea but it can't be fun for Newey and Horner to know they probably have the best chassis and car design and yet the Renault engine as they install it (key point according to Renault) is unreliable.

Boromedic

Red Bull and Mclaren seem to have more breakdowns than the Renault works team so there must be something in how they package it that makes it more unreliable. It's all well and good having the best car in other areas, but if you keep breaking down you're just losing more points than finishing lower down the order possibly. They must be marginal on cooling or similar with the way it's packaged, they would still be comfortably third fastest I would have thought if they made some tweaks perhaps. Who knows I suppose! At the end of the day Ferrari, Mercedes, and to some degree Renault and Honda, want the current engine formula to continue as it's relevant to their road car divisions and fantastic R and D for them, they have zero interest in an old fashioned V10 or V8 engine that has been done to death. So I don't blame either of them for being resistant, they need a retro race on the same weekend in older cars!!!

You guys are doing a great job at Mercedes @markr76 , keep taking that fight to Vettel and co. what a fab race Sunday was, think this is one of my fave seasons this year now. 

Cols

Fretwired said:

Honda and Renault are on the back foot compared to Mercedes. Of the two Renault seems to be doing a better job. Will Honda eventually quit? 

I have no idea but it can't be fun for Newey and Horner to know they probably have the best chassis and car design and yet the Renault engine as they install it (key point according to Renault) is unreliable.

It’s notable that, of all the teams using Renault engines, Red Bull tend to grenade most frequently.  Newey is well known for elegantly shrinkwrapping the car, so I would concur with Renault’s position that the packaging is contributing towards engine failure.

Given that it’s now widely thought that McLaren’s packaging of the Honda engine was a primary cause of its poor performance and reliability, I’m expecting to see Max and Pierre at the head of a plume of smoke on a regular basis next year.

Modellista

markr76 said:

This is incorrect. Actually all the engine manufacturers are on the same page when it comes to the  rule changes. They all want the engine regs to stay the same. 
It's all down to cost. As it will cost too much to design and test a new engine. As they've already paid out to develop the current crop of engines they all want to stay with the same ones going forward. The only changes they really want are to make the current engines louder. This would be done be the fia changing the rules to allow for an increased fuel limit, allowing higher revs and more noise.
The current engine manufacturers although the would like new entrants to enter. Were disappointed that the fia and liberty have shown a lack of respect towards them as they are the ones currently spending millions to build and develop the engines. They have also stuck around f1.
Although Renault and honda are behind us at Mercedes and Ferrari in the engine department. They are not complaining and know they both need to up their game.
Red bull were once opposed to the current engines regs but have now fallen in line as they are in bed with honda.

As for budget caps. Both us at Mercedes and Ferrari and also red bull do not want the budgets to change. But have accepted they might need to in the future. 
At the end of the day if I were a boss at an f1 team. I wouldnt want to rush into a budget cut that would mean my staff would loose their jobs.
Plus in the past a budget cap has been agreed only for certain other teams to not stick to it and find loop holes to get round it. It's too hard to police. No one wants to give anything away!
In every sport there are the haves and have nots. 

A great post and nice to have some hard info from the horse's mouth, so to speak.  Thanks.

I like the idea of increasing fuel flow and rev limits to bring back some of the magic deafening howl that used to characterise an F1 car, and still characterises the lower formulae, making F1 seem somewhat clinical in comparison.  Seems a simple way of solving the noise problem without the expense of starting from scratch with a new engine.

Would you known if there's any appetite for dropping the KERS system (or whatever it's called now)?  That doesn't bring anything to the racing from a fan's point of view (in fact probably spoils it somewhat - nobody knows when the driver is fiddling with the batteries rather than just driving the engine) and as a source of increased complexity could be responsible for reduced reliability for Honda and Renault.  Also one way of making the most of money available for smaller teams would be to reduce drivetrain complexity.  It would make the cars lighter.  I personally would prefer to know that the drivers are just using the petrol engine rather than pressing a button (or whatever) to activate the electric motor.  The drop in power could be compensated for by the changes mentioned above - increased fuel flow rates and higher maximum engine revs.

Fretwired

Cols said:

Fretwired said:

Honda and Renault are on the back foot compared to Mercedes. Of the two Renault seems to be doing a better job. Will Honda eventually quit? 

I have no idea but it can't be fun for Newey and Horner to know they probably have the best chassis and car design and yet the Renault engine as they install it (key point according to Renault) is unreliable.

It’s notable that, of all the teams using Renault engines, Red Bull tend to grenade most frequently.  Newey is well known for elegantly shrinkwrapping the car, so I would concur with Renault’s position that the packaging is contributing towards engine failure.

Given that it’s now widely thought that McLaren’s packaging of the Honda engine was a primary cause of its poor performance and reliability, I’m expecting to see Max and Pierre at the head of a plume of smoke on a regular basis next year.

Renault have blamed Red Bull's car and the way the engine is installed. As you point out the Renault works team don't blow as many engines.

Fretwired

markr76 said:

This is incorrect. Actually all the engine manufacturers are on the same page when it comes to the  rule changes. They all want the engine regs to stay the same. 
It's all down to cost. As it will cost too much to design and test a new engine. As they've already paid out to develop the current crop of engines they all want to stay with the same ones going forward. The only changes they really want are to make the current engines louder. This would be done be the fia changing the rules to allow for an increased fuel limit, allowing higher revs and more noise.
The current engine manufacturers although the would like new entrants to enter. Were disappointed that the fia and liberty have shown a lack of respect towards them as they are the ones currently spending millions to build and develop the engines. They have also stuck around f1.
Although Renault and honda are behind us at Mercedes and Ferrari in the engine department. They are not complaining and know they both need to up their game.
Red bull were once opposed to the current engines regs but have now fallen in line as they are in bed with honda.

As for budget caps. Both us at Mercedes and Ferrari and also red bull do not want the budgets to change. But have accepted they might need to in the future. 
At the end of the day if I were a boss at an f1 team. I wouldnt want to rush into a budget cut that would mean my staff would loose their jobs.
Plus in the past a budget cap has been agreed only for certain other teams to not stick to it and find loop holes to get round it. It's too hard to police. No one wants to give anything away!
In every sport there are the haves and have nots. 

Good to know we have an expert.

I'd have thought all the existing manufacturers would want the regs to remain the same as it reduces development costs. However, how much further do you think these engines can be pushed in terms of performance? There must come a point when you're throwing lots of cash and getting only miniscule amounts of improvement performance wise.

Why would VW want to enter F1 now? They would start years behind Mercedes and co and would be throwing large amounts of cash at what is fast becoming obsolete tech from a road car point of view. More and more new cars are electric.

How will Mercedes joining Forumla E affect F1 in the long term?

Fretwired

Garthy said:

Fretwired said:

Red Bull to leave F1 if Honda engines are uncompetitive.

“We are happy to have a great partner with Honda for the next few years,” Helmut Marko, Red Bull’s motorsport adviser, told Speedweek.

“However, should this co-operation — for whatever reason — not work as expected, Red Bull will leave F1.”

Horner to Renault?

Horner to Renault? With his head on a spike maybe.

Horner's a top F1 principal who guided Red Bull to four championships. Renault may want his expertise. F1's a tough business .. Horner vented his frustrations in support of his team. You want lion leading your team not a timid mouse. Who knows, given Ferrari's ability to throw away their obvious advantage Horner may end up running the team. He knows how to handle Vettel .. ;-)

markr76

Cols said:

markr76 said:

I do. Been there 12 years since the honda days. I worked for Jordan gp before that.

Wow!  That must’ve been a rollercoaster ride.

Sure has been. Jordan's was a fantastic place to work. I was based at the wind tunnel in Brackley. It was like hanging round with your mates and getting payed for it! Bloody hard work at the same time. 80h weeks were the norm during the car build.
Honda was good even though we were rubbish. I started the week before the first win. Button at Budapest. The Brawn year was fantastic and hard at the same time. I had a feeling of guilt, as a load of my friends were made redundant. I got interviewed by itv news after we won the championship. Was a joke in the department as my colleague who was with me made local news, I made national news. The others wound him up saying it was because I was better looking!
Mercedes was strange at first as none of us wanted to be involved with a manufacturer again after honda. 
I got to meet Schumacher though, who is one of me my hero's 
It's funny I was never a Hamilton fan. I always respected his talent.  
But when I met him, he was just so normal and down to earth. Really changed my opinion of him.
Its been unreal for me that I've helped the last 2 british champions win 4 titles between them.
In my 18 year stint in f1 I've managed to be involved in 5 championships. Hopefully 6 by the end of the season!!

markr76

Fretwired said:

markr76 said:

This is incorrect. Actually all the engine manufacturers are on the same page when it comes to the  rule changes. They all want the engine regs to stay the same. 
It's all down to cost. As it will cost too much to design and test a new engine. As they've already paid out to develop the current crop of engines they all want to stay with the same ones going forward. The only changes they really want are to make the current engines louder. This would be done be the fia changing the rules to allow for an increased fuel limit, allowing higher revs and more noise.
The current engine manufacturers although the would like new entrants to enter. Were disappointed that the fia and liberty have shown a lack of respect towards them as they are the ones currently spending millions to build and develop the engines. They have also stuck around f1.
Although Renault and honda are behind us at Mercedes and Ferrari in the engine department. They are not complaining and know they both need to up their game.
Red bull were once opposed to the current engines regs but have now fallen in line as they are in bed with honda.

As for budget caps. Both us at Mercedes and Ferrari and also red bull do not want the budgets to change. But have accepted they might need to in the future. 
At the end of the day if I were a boss at an f1 team. I wouldnt want to rush into a budget cut that would mean my staff would loose their jobs.
Plus in the past a budget cap has been agreed only for certain other teams to not stick to it and find loop holes to get round it. It's too hard to police. No one wants to give anything away!
In every sport there are the haves and have nots. 

Good to know we have an expert.

I'd have thought all the existing manufacturers would want the regs to remain the same as it reduces development costs. However, how much further do you think these engines can be pushed in terms of performance? There must come a point when you're throwing lots of cash and getting only miniscule amounts of improvement performance wise.

Why would VW want to enter F1 now? They would start years behind Mercedes and co and would be throwing large amounts of cash at what is fast becoming obsolete tech from a road car point of view. More and more new cars are electric.

How will Mercedes joining Forumla E affect F1 in the long term?

Not sure really. Mercedes want to keep both sides going. They are investing heavily in our hq. They tell us they have long term plans for f1. 
Electric racing is still too young to know if it's really going to be big.
I'm not really a fan of it to be honest.
Originally I heard a rumour that vw were iffy about f1 while Bernie was still involved as their board hated him. 
Not heard anything else really on that front.

markr76

Modellista said:

markr76 said:

This is incorrect. Actually all the engine manufacturers are on the same page when it comes to the  rule changes. They all want the engine regs to stay the same. 
It's all down to cost. As it will cost too much to design and test a new engine. As they've already paid out to develop the current crop of engines they all want to stay with the same ones going forward. The only changes they really want are to make the current engines louder. This would be done be the fia changing the rules to allow for an increased fuel limit, allowing higher revs and more noise.
The current engine manufacturers although the would like new entrants to enter. Were disappointed that the fia and liberty have shown a lack of respect towards them as they are the ones currently spending millions to build and develop the engines. They have also stuck around f1.
Although Renault and honda are behind us at Mercedes and Ferrari in the engine department. They are not complaining and know they both need to up their game.
Red bull were once opposed to the current engines regs but have now fallen in line as they are in bed with honda.

As for budget caps. Both us at Mercedes and Ferrari and also red bull do not want the budgets to change. But have accepted they might need to in the future. 
At the end of the day if I were a boss at an f1 team. I wouldnt want to rush into a budget cut that would mean my staff would loose their jobs.
Plus in the past a budget cap has been agreed only for certain other teams to not stick to it and find loop holes to get round it. It's too hard to police. No one wants to give anything away!
In every sport there are the haves and have nots. 

A great post and nice to have some hard info from the horse's mouth, so to speak.  Thanks.

I like the idea of increasing fuel flow and rev limits to bring back some of the magic deafening howl that used to characterise an F1 car, and still characterises the lower formulae, making F1 seem somewhat clinical in comparison.  Seems a simple way of solving the noise problem without the expense of starting from scratch with a new engine.

Would you known if there's any appetite for dropping the KERS system (or whatever it's called now)?  That doesn't bring anything to the racing from a fan's point of view (in fact probably spoils it somewhat - nobody knows when the driver is fiddling with the batteries rather than just driving the engine) and as a source of increased complexity could be responsible for reduced reliability for Honda and Renault.  Also one way of making the most of money available for smaller teams would be to reduce drivetrain complexity.  It would make the cars lighter.  I personally would prefer to know that the drivers are just using the petrol engine rather than pressing a button (or whatever) to activate the electric motor.  The drop in power could be compensated for by the changes mentioned above - increased fuel flow rates and higher maximum engine revs.

I think they want the ers system to stay as it's an integral part of how the engine works. Would cost too much to remove it I'm guessing. 
I'm personally not a fan of the drs system. It's like false overtaking. I've heard Ross Brawn isn't a fan either and wants it removed. But getting new rules through takes time as every team needs to agree to it.

markr76

Boromedic said:

Red Bull and Mclaren seem to have more breakdowns than the Renault works team so there must be something in how they package it that makes it more unreliable. It's all well and good having the best car in other areas, but if you keep breaking down you're just losing more points than finishing lower down the order possibly. They must be marginal on cooling or similar with the way it's packaged, they would still be comfortably third fastest I would have thought if they made some tweaks perhaps. Who knows I suppose! At the end of the day Ferrari, Mercedes, and to some degree Renault and Honda, want the current engine formula to continue as it's relevant to their road car divisions and fantastic R and D for them, they have zero interest in an old fashioned V10 or V8 engine that has been done to death. So I don't blame either of them for being resistant, they need a retro race on the same weekend in older cars!!!

You guys are doing a great job at Mercedes @markr76 , keep taking that fight to Vettel and co. what a fab race Sunday was, think this is one of my fave seasons this year now. 

Thanks for that. It's been tough this year. Ferrari are doing a great job on the car front. It's a quick car! Ours is no slouch either!!
Once you're out front it's hard to stay there as we have a giant target on our backs. Which gives everyone else something to aim at. It's going to be a busy end of year for us!!
If we can get this year's championship in the can. I think I'll treat myself to a new amp!!

Cols

Latest rumour is that Kvyat and Buemi are being lined up for a return to Toro Rosso.  I guess the pickings from the Red Bull Young Driver Programme are looking a bit slim.

Garthy

Cols said:

Latest rumour is that Kvyat and Buemi are being lined up for a return to Toro Rosso.  I guess the pickings from the Red Bull Young Driver Programme are looking a bit slim.

Guess that’s what happens when too many careers are left in tatters.

Fretwired

Cols said:

Latest rumour is that Kvyat and Buemi are being lined up for a return to Toro Rosso.  I guess the pickings from the Red Bull Young Driver Programme are looking a bit slim.

It's a shame as it looks like George Russell is going to miss out on an F1 seat next year. His links to Mercedes are putting teams off. Wolff isn't happy - he's trying Williams but Claire wants a paying driver as funds are low.

Cols

Fretwired said:

Cols said:

Latest rumour is that Kvyat and Buemi are being lined up for a return to Toro Rosso.  I guess the pickings from the Red Bull Young Driver Programme are looking a bit slim.

It's a shame as it looks like George Russell is going to miss out on an F1 seat next year. His links to Mercedes are putting teams off. Wolff isn't happy - he's trying Williams but Claire wants a paying driver as funds are low.

Williams have got a hell of a gap to plug in their budget next year with the loss of both Martini and Stroll.  Worst timing to have such a shocker of a season.

Claire could probably be persuaded to take either Russell or Ocon (or both, that’d be cool) but needs sufficient inducement in the form of money, engine discounts or technology.

Garthy

Cols said:

Fretwired said:

Cols said:

Latest rumour is that Kvyat and Buemi are being lined up for a return to Toro Rosso.  I guess the pickings from the Red Bull Young Driver Programme are looking a bit slim.

It's a shame as it looks like George Russell is going to miss out on an F1 seat next year. His links to Mercedes are putting teams off. Wolff isn't happy - he's trying Williams but Claire wants a paying driver as funds are low.

Williams have got a hell of a gap to plug in their budget next year with the loss of both Martini and Stroll.  Worst timing to have such a shocker of a season.

Claire could probably be persuaded to take either Russell or Ocon (or both, that’d be cool) but needs sufficient inducement in the form of money, engine discounts or technology.

They already have a significant technology partnership and the engines are supplied at cost (none of the teams are making a profit on the engines). Mercedes have helped them as much as they can, there's no more they can do.

Williams have prostituted themselves for years and now they've run out of punters.

Fretwired

Garthy said:

Cols said:

They already have a significant technology partnership and the engines are supplied at cost (none of the teams are making a profit on the engines). Mercedes have helped them as much as they can, there's no more they can do.

Williams have prostituted themselves for years and now they've run out of punters.

Agreed.

Williams would be better off improving their car and getting a young driver like Russell who can push the car up the grid, grab some headlines and attract some paying sponsors. To me Claire comes across as F1's equivalent of Theresa May - a school ma'am, lecturing type who lacks vision. She speaks like a PR person (which is effectively what she was when her dad was in charge). Williams needs a bastard like Big Ron from his early McLaren days.