The F1 thread

chillidoggy

Well done Max, what a finale!

goldtop

chillidoggy said:

Well done Max, what a finale!

Don't understand any of that.

1 - Max was way behind
2 - his tyres allowed the pass, not his skill
3 - it was a fiasco, not a finale
4 - the actual finale will now be at CAS

Garold86

If they take this away from Max, that feels incredibly harsh - he did nothing wrong as per the rules that were implemented on the day.

However, Lewis has been royally done over here, by a man implementing his own version of the rules. He would have cruised to victory had it not been for the safety car.

What an absolute sh*t show.

goldtop

Some discussion about whether it's the FIA's own court of appeal (i.e. CAS being irrelevant).

For sure, Mercedes expected some 'Masi Magic' - or, by complete coincidence, the QC from the UEFA/ManCity case just happened to be holidaying in Abu Dhabi: https://www.monckton.com/paul-harris-qc-is-the-lawyers-barrister-of-the-week/

Haych

Masi continuing as race director is surely untenable now. 

He made a rash decision in the heat of the moment which is now under very close scrutiny and by the letter of the rules was wrong. He cocked up, plain and simple. The pressure got to him and in an attempt to see the race finish not following the safety car he made his own mind up over what should happen. 

However, if the WDC is now handed to Lewis that makes it just as bad. Nobody wants to see a race or championship won by politics or by courtroom. 

Surely he has to go. 

skullfunkerry

Haych said:

Masi continuing as race director is surely untenable now. 

He made a rash decision in the heat of the moment which is now under very close scrutiny and by the letter of the rules was wrong. He cocked up, plain and simple. The pressure got to him and in an attempt to see the race finish not following the safety car he made his own mind up over what should happen. 

However, if the WDC is now handed to Lewis that makes it just as bad. Nobody wants to see a race or championship won by politics or by courtroom. 

Surely he has to go. 

He's also set a precedent that none of the drivers will respect him or anything he says, so if he tries to start next season with a tougher stance they're just going to ignore him anyway.

TimmyO

Haych said:

Masi continuing as race director is surely untenable now. 

He made a rash decision in the heat of the moment which is now under very close scrutiny and by the letter of the rules was wrong. He cocked up, plain and simple. The pressure got to him and in an attempt to see the race finish not following the safety car he made his own mind up over what should happen. 

However, if the WDC is now handed to Lewis that makes it just as bad. Nobody wants to see a race or championship won by politics or by courtroom. 

Surely he has to go. 

Tend to agree - on all counts 

Teetonetal

Ridiculous. As much as I have come to dislike red bull F1 this season, this is a mess of FIA's own making.

I wonder how this will affect mercedes desire to participate... From the outside it looks as if this season everything has been done to get that title to Max.

gavin_axecaster

Haych said:

Masi continuing as race director is surely untenable now. 

He made a rash decision in the heat of the moment which is now under very close scrutiny and by the letter of the rules was wrong. He cocked up, plain and simple. The pressure got to him and in an attempt to see the race finish not following the safety car he made his own mind up over what should happen. 

However, if the WDC is now handed to Lewis that makes it just as bad. Nobody wants to see a race or championship won by politics or by courtroom. 

Surely he has to go. 

I don't understand this logic - surely we want the deserving winner/champion and not a championship won by unfair means?

If it turns out that according to the rules the race should have ended under safety car with LH first then damn right the result should be changed. We have retrospective results/penalties all season long. Final race of the season, especially when it is deciding the title, has to have the same procedure applied.

I'm no lawyer but according to what I read, all lapped cars needed to unlap themselves and the SC comes in at the end of the following lap. In this case that would have meant at the end of the final lap.

So two breaches of regulations - only the cars between pos 1+2 were allowed to unlap themselves.

The safety car still should have stayed out until the end of the following lap which would have seen LH cross the line in first place.

We have precedent - what "race" was it that they had the grid circulate for 3 laps under SC just so they could call it a "race"?

stickyfiddle

Merc & RB have apparently been given the stewards' verdict. I don't know if we'll get any comment before they publish the ruling. 

Whatever the result it's a real shame the FIA screwed the pooch on the one weekend the whole bloody world was watching. Hamilton deserved to win this race (or at least have a red flag and 5 lap sprint on softs rather than be a sitting duck) and Max didn't do anything wrong (his last overtake was actually really good for once!) and doesn't deserve to lose the win on that basis. 

What a mess.

mrkb

Damon Hill must be looking forward to his retrospective championship appeal which will drop one from Schumacher and make Hamilton the best ever. Result!

Fretwired

chillidoggy said:

Well done Max, what a finale!

Remind me what Max did in this Grand Prix to deserve the win and become world champion? Lewis beat him off the line at the start for the lead, they then clashed, but the stewards decided it didn't warrant investigation, and from that point on Lewis was always in front of Max and was pulling away from him. Had the stewards asked Lewis to let Max past him after they clashed he had the raw pace to overtake and beat Max fair and square.

It seems that Masi favoured Red Bull in the safety car period by ignoring the FIA's own rules. Had there been no safety car Lewis would have won. Max is a lucky guy and Masi is a disgrace. Whiting would have finished the race under the safety car.

stickyfiddle

Aaaand Chris Medland reporting RB say protest not upheld. This will end up in court

thumpingrug

gavin_axecaster said:

We have precedent - what "race" was it that they had the grid circulate for 3 laps under SC just so they could call it a "race"?

That was Spa, and by calling its race it meant they had no legal responsibility to refund ticket money.  Leaves a sour taste doesn't it.

It seems very clear to me that the "resume after a safety car period" rules where not followed.  That being the case the result of the race should not stand and should go back to what would are happened if they had been followed - finish under safety car or safety car would have stayed out an additional lap and due to no overtaking till the start/finish line, Lewes would have won.   Those are the rules.  Michael Masi cant just make them up.

mrkb

Fretwired said:

chillidoggy said:

Well done Max, what a finale!

Remind me what Max did in this Grand Prix to deserve the win and become world champion? Lewis beat him off the line at the start for the lead, they then clashed, but the stewards decided it didn't warrant investigation, and from that point on Lewis was always in front of Max and was pulling away from him. Had the stewards asked Lewis to let Max past him after they clashed he had the raw pace to overtake and beat Max fair and square.

It seems that Masi favoured Red Bull in the safety car period by ignoring the FIA's own rules. Had there been no safety car Lewis would have won. Max is a lucky guy and Masi is a disgrace. Whiting would have finished the race under the safety car.

He crossed the finish line first.

Fretwired

Apparently, the FIA say 'Masi has the discretion to make decisions' .. not yet confirmed but it looks like anything goes now.

Fretwired

mrkb said:

Fretwired said:

chillidoggy said:

Well done Max, what a finale!

Remind me what Max did in this Grand Prix to deserve the win and become world champion? Lewis beat him off the line at the start for the lead, they then clashed, but the stewards decided it didn't warrant investigation, and from that point on Lewis was always in front of Max and was pulling away from him. Had the stewards asked Lewis to let Max past him after they clashed he had the raw pace to overtake and beat Max fair and square.

It seems that Masi favoured Red Bull in the safety car period by ignoring the FIA's own rules. Had there been no safety car Lewis would have won. Max is a lucky guy and Masi is a disgrace. Whiting would have finished the race under the safety car.

He crossed the finish line first.

Very droll. I said to 'deserve the win' .. he just got lucky.

Haych

gavin_axecaster said:

Haych said:

Masi continuing as race director is surely untenable now. 

He made a rash decision in the heat of the moment which is now under very close scrutiny and by the letter of the rules was wrong. He cocked up, plain and simple. The pressure got to him and in an attempt to see the race finish not following the safety car he made his own mind up over what should happen. 

However, if the WDC is now handed to Lewis that makes it just as bad. Nobody wants to see a race or championship won by politics or by courtroom. 

Surely he has to go. 

I don't understand this logic - surely we want the deserving winner/champion and not a championship won by unfair means?

If it turns out that according to the rules the race should have ended under safety car with LH first then damn right the result should be changed. We have retrospective results/penalties all season long. Final race of the season, especially when it is deciding the title, has to have the same procedure applied.

I'm no lawyer but according to what I read, all lapped cars needed to unlap themselves and the SC comes in at the end of the following lap. In this case that would have meant at the end of the final lap.

So two breaches of regulations - only the cars between pos 1+2 were allowed to unlap themselves.

The safety car still should have stayed out until the end of the following lap which would have seen LH cross the line in first place.

We have precedent - what "race" was it that they had the grid circulate for 3 laps under SC just so they could call it a "race"?

Because now there is no good outcome. The verdict will always be questioned. Above that there is no way for Masi or the FIA to save face and the verdict just in is that the race director has carte blanch to make the rules up as he goes along. 

stickyfiddle

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes-second-protest-verdict-verstappen/6878812/

So 48.13 overrides 48.12 despite the rules not saying that. That is 48.12 is pointless because the race director can ignore it to his whim as long as he puts the "safety car in this lap" message out.

What an utter joke.

Simonh

They have just killed F1 with that statement. May as well be wwe wrestling now.