The F1 thread

Dontgiveupyourdayjob

I think Jolyon Palmer made a great point in his analysis - Sainz was drifting slightly left as he was trying to get the tow from Leclerc who was also drifting left. That's exactly what you would expect him to do, and he was perfectly within his rights to do it. Perez should really have anticipated it and shifted across.

Boromedic

Average driver creates avoidable accident, it's normal stuff in F1 really, best bit was earlier in the race when Perez had a little whinge that Lando was holding him up deliberately. Well yeah Minister Of Nothing, enjoying yer own medicine there??!! Hahaha

P.s. Someone questioned whether Max is a generational talent as the wheels have fallen off a bit, he absolutely is regardless of whatever else you think.

dazzajl

Boromedic said:

Average driver creates avoidable accident, it's normal stuff in F1 really, best bit was earlier in the race when Perez had a little whinge that Lando was holding him up deliberately. Well yeah Minister Of Nothing, enjoying yer own medicine there??!! Hahaha

P.s. Someone questioned whether Max is a generational talent as the wheels have fallen off a bit, he absolutely is regardless of whatever else you think.

He might well be and I appreciate how easy it is to comment from the safety of the sofa. What we need to see from Max to cement his place at the top of the tree is him rising to the challenge of wining a championship without a car advantage or a massively controversial gifted shove over the line. 

With Perez, I feel really badly for him now. That crash was his fault and it seems that whatever happens, it just doesn’t work out for him, like he’s mentally bought into the curse on him. Surely for his own mental health, he can’t get out of there quick enough?

Boromedic

dazzajl said:

Boromedic said:

Average driver creates avoidable accident, it's normal stuff in F1 really, best bit was earlier in the race when Perez had a little whinge that Lando was holding him up deliberately. Well yeah Minister Of Nothing, enjoying yer own medicine there??!! Hahaha

P.s. Someone questioned whether Max is a generational talent as the wheels have fallen off a bit, he absolutely is regardless of whatever else you think.

He might well be and I appreciate how easy it is to comment from the safety of the sofa. What we need to see from Max to cement his place at the top of the tree is him rising to the challenge of wining a championship without a car advantage or a massively controversial gifted shove over the line. 

With Perez, I feel really badly for him now. That crash was his fault and it seems that whatever happens, it just doesn’t work out for him, like he’s mentally bought into the curse on him. Surely for his own mental health, he can’t get out of there quick enough?

Unfortunately in the modern era, (and even in the past TBF), all drivers who win generally have a car advantage. I can't think of one champion I've watched in my era who has won the title in a car that wasn't in the top 2 or 3 cars that season?

Dontgiveupyourdayjob

Boromedic said:

dazzajl said:

Boromedic said:

<SNIP>

Unfortunately in the modern era, (and even in the past TBF), all drivers who win generally have a car advantage. I can't think of one champion I've watched in my era who has won the title in a car that wasn't in the top 2 or 3 cars that season?

Yeah, I was gonna say, surely that's always been the case? That's kinda the point of elite motorsport - the test of man AND machine.

Dodge

Boromedic said:

dazzajl said:

Boromedic said:

Average driver creates avoidable accident, it's normal stuff in F1 really, best bit was earlier in the race when Perez had a little whinge that Lando was holding him up deliberately. Well yeah Minister Of Nothing, enjoying yer own medicine there??!! Hahaha

P.s. Someone questioned whether Max is a generational talent as the wheels have fallen off a bit, he absolutely is regardless of whatever else you think.

He might well be and I appreciate how easy it is to comment from the safety of the sofa. What we need to see from Max to cement his place at the top of the tree is him rising to the challenge of wining a championship without a car advantage or a massively controversial gifted shove over the line. 

With Perez, I feel really badly for him now. That crash was his fault and it seems that whatever happens, it just doesn’t work out for him, like he’s mentally bought into the curse on him. Surely for his own mental health, he can’t get out of there quick enough?

Unfortunately in the modern era, (and even in the past TBF), all drivers who win generally have a car advantage. I can't think of one champion I've watched in my era who has won the title in a car that wasn't in the top 2 or 3 cars that season?

It's rare for the driver champion not being in the constructors championship winning car fullstop.  From the past 30 years there have only been 4:

2021 Verstappen (Mercedes)

2008 Hamilton (Ferrari)

1999 Hakkinen (Ferrari)

1994 Schumacher (Williams)

dazzajl

I’m not saying that Max has to drag an Alpine to the championship to be considered an all time great. I would like to see him win a championship, or three, being challenged all the way by another team or driver. So far, he’s had one under the most contentious circumstances and the others with an unassailable advantage over the rest of the field. That’s not his fault of course but he’s not had to survive that pressure yet. 

euan

I think with the narrative being that the RB was so difficult to drive but ultimately fast only Verstappen could drive it. Because he was so good. 

Yesterday Perez floated him.  

Boromedic

Perez can manage understeer more easily than Max  and did better Verstappen last year at the same track so I think it's track specific really. 

Piastri was amazing yesterday I thought, that overtake whilst assisted by Le Clerc was something else, literally tiny fractions away from running into the barrier, unbelievable really. If McLaren are up front from the start of next year he is a better all round driver than Norris who I do rate, he's more ruthless and you need that to be an top level driver. They're gonna have issues next year I think. 

Lastly with that list, 3 of them I'd kind of agree with, but Max didn't win in 2021 let's be frank

stickyfiddle

From the last 30 years or so I think the only one you could argue who won in not the best car was probably Raikonen in 2007. The McLaren was quicker overall but had 2x god-tier drivers taking points off each other. You put almost anyone else alongside Ham or Alonso that year and Kimi would’ve got smoked. 

Somewhat ironically the next nearest is probably Alonso in 2012, in a Ferrari that really had no business being that close to a title

danishbacon

Yikes

https://www.planetf1.com/news/sergio-perez-father-hospitalised-after-azerbaijan-grand-prix

Cols

Looks like Ricciardo is definitely binned for 2025, and possibly after Singapore is done.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/articles/cz04ry20pkjo

Boromedic

TBF as much as I like Dani Ric and he's had some great moments, he hasn't comprehensively beaten Tsunoda and he's had enough time. Lawson deserves a chance now, we need more rookies/young drivers coming in to have a shot and mix shit up. 

Cols

I’m afraid I agree.  Neither he nor Perez have shown much flicker of promise results-wise to warrant remaining in the Red Bull/VCARB seats.  Perez seems to have swung it during August with the heavy sponsorship backing, but DR just has his marketability as the sole remaining reason to stay.

stickyfiddle

Honestly the way RB has treated its non-Max talent over the last years has been consistently stupid. 

DannyRic hasn’t been spectacular, but it’s not like Tsunoda has set the world on fire, and Perez has been plain hilarious at times. 

i guess they’re very worried about Max leaving for Merc or AM, but none of current guys look like championship material. In past years they’d have binned the lot of them then and hired Porchaire, Colapinto, Schwartzman, etc to see if any of them have that level of potential

Cols

Wiz, wiz, and wiz again.

Red Bull have consistently stuck to a ‘one driver’ policy since Vettel/Webber days.  The exception was 2014, when DR sailed in and unexpectedly blew Vettel into the weeds.  

Verstappen’s taken it a step further with a contractual requirement to be ‘consulted’ on the appointment of his team mate.  Undoubtedly this was a factor behind Sainz, loaned out to Renault but still under contract to Red Bull, not being seriously considered as a replacement for Ricciardo when he jumped ship.  Verstappen didn’t get on with Sainz, added to which Carlos had been just as quick as Max in their Toro Rosso days.  Not an appealing prospect to Max, so instead the unseasoned Gasly was prematurely called up to the senior team.

On arrival, Pierre failed to appreciate that his expected role was to be a clear number 2.  Marko and Horner started to publicly slag him off as early as pre-season testing.  Gasly lasted half a season before being demoted in favour of Albon, who was treated more sympathetically but fared little better.

Bereft of any obvious internal talent to replace Albon (Gasly, back at Toro Rosso and performing at a high level, was obviously blacklisted at the senior team), Perez was brought in.  In truth Perez wasn’t significantly closer to Verstappen than Albon had been, but he enjoyed a decent honeymoon as wingman until he strung a few decent results together and started talking up his chances of a title challenge.

At that point he was put rather firmly into his place.  Fastforward to the present day, and a lacklustre Sergio currently holds on to his seat by a happy combination of ‘no compelling internal replacement’ and an unwillingness to recruit an external driver fast enough to rattle Max.

But if Max walks (and with the loss of Newey and the uncertainty of whether Red Bull’s in house engine will be competitive, this is certainly possible)… who will be the next ‘one driver’ for them?

skullfunkerry

It's funny isn't it? For a team with such a well-known young driver academy, Red Bull seems to have killed a lot more careers than it has launched...

Emiel

Cols said:

Wiz, wiz, and wiz again.

Red Bull have consistently stuck to a ‘one driver’ policy since Vettel/Webber days.  The exception was 2014, when DR sailed in and unexpectedly blew Vettel into the weeds.  

Verstappen’s taken it a step further with a contractual requirement to be ‘consulted’ on the appointment of his team mate.  Undoubtedly this was a factor behind Sainz, loaned out to Renault but still under contract to Red Bull, not being seriously considered as a replacement for Ricciardo when he jumped ship.  Verstappen didn’t get on with Sainz, added to which Carlos had been just as quick as Max in their Toro Rosso days.  Not an appealing prospect to Max, so instead the unseasoned Gasly was prematurely called up to the senior team.

On arrival, Pierre failed to appreciate that his expected role was to be a clear number 2.  Marko and Horner started to publicly slag him off as early as pre-season testing.  Gasly lasted half a season before being demoted in favour of Albon, who was treated more sympathetically but fared little better.

Bereft of any obvious internal talent to replace Albon (Gasly, back at Toro Rosso and performing at a high level, was obviously blacklisted at the senior team), Perez was brought in.  In truth Perez wasn’t significantly closer to Verstappen than Albon had been, but he enjoyed a decent honeymoon as wingman until he strung a few decent results together and started talking up his chances of a title challenge.

At that point he was put rather firmly into his place.  Fastforward to the present day, and a lacklustre Sergio currently holds on to his seat by a happy combination of ‘no compelling internal replacement’ and an unwillingness to recruit an external driver fast enough to rattle Max.

But if Max walks (and with the loss of Newey and the uncertainty of whether Red Bull’s in house engine will be competitive, this is certainly possible)… who will be the next ‘one driver’ for them?

This is mostly speculation. We know nothing of whats in the contracts of F1 drivers. Sainz vs Verstappen had most likely more to do with their fathers not getting along and demanding their kid (they were 16 and 18!) would get the preferred treatment.

Marko has been very clear about why Gasly didn't fit in with RB. When he came into RBR he thought he would have a chance of beating Verstappen but found out he was quite a bit behind from the start. Gasly then cockily demanded changes to the car and its development and it went downhill from there.

About drivers since Ricciardo not capable of beating Verstappen. There is a very interesting interview with Albon where he explains that the RBR is a very very sharp car almost like a computer mouse at max sensitivity. When he/Gasly wasn't performing, he would overdrive, spin the car and/or crash. That destroys further confidence in the car and your abilities. Verstappen is pretty much the only one capable driving it. With more understeer Checo gets closer but the pure pace drops.

The reason Checo, Ricci and Tsunoda are still driving the RB(R) cars has properly more to do with selling cans of caffeined sugar-sweetened drinks in their respective markets than anything else. I guess much will change once Verstappen jumps ship (I think he will for 2026 or 2027. Who knows what the driver market will look like in a year, maybe certain top drivers will be available then.

euan

skullfunkerry said:

It's funny isn't it? For a team with such a well-known young driver academy, Red Bull seems to have killed a lot more careers than it has launched...

It’s well known rather than successful. Verstappen wasn’t an academy driver. 

Cols

Absolutely correct @Emiel, this is just speculation.  What’s in Verstappen’s contract is confidential. 

However, it’s clear that Red Bull seek his opinion (and that of his father) and weigh this up when making driver decisions - that’s a text book definition of consulting.  This was exemplified in the aftermath of Perez’s generous contract extension, with Marko stating “He is Max (Verstappen)’s teammate, and has managed to stay upright for a few years now. We wanted stability and they work well together. And I have already said that the Verstappens are not easy.”

“They (Max and Jos) wouldn’t have agreed with every teammate."

https://www.f1technical.net/news/24978#:~:text=Helmut%20Marko%20said%20that%20Perez's,the%20Verstappens%20are%20not%20easy.%E2%80%9D

Back when Ricciardo announced his departure in 2018, it was widely rumoured that Verstappen would or did exercise a veto over Sainz joining.  This was denied both by Marko and, later, Sainz himself.

For Gasly - Marko was publicly slagging him off from preseason testing (where he crashed), stating to the press “In the second crash we ran out of spares, so Max Verstappen could hardly drive on the last day,what we've seen in the tests is that Gasly is not yet on Verstappen's level. But we didn't expect that either.  Especially the second crash hurt us. He should not allow himself to do that anymore."

Now, that’s all fair comment.  But something to discuss behind closed doors, rather than briefing against your own driver to the general public.

Another good point on the Red Bull being particularly well-suited to Verstappen’s driving style.  Schumacher was the same in this respect; as long as the car had a strong front end and turned in positively he’d happily look after whatever the rear was doing.  So the team would naturally develop the car in this direction.

I understand drivers have a natural preference for how a car handles, but realistically it’s the job of a racing driver to get into whatever car he’s given and, in a relatively short space of time, make it go quicker than any other driver.  The stark facts were that Gasly, Albon and Perez didn’t accomplish that.

However, specifically with Gasly the team forced him to adopt Verstappen’s setup.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/gasly-now-using-verstappens-red-bull-formula-1-set-ups-marko-4991470/4991470/

So if you’re compelling a driver to adopt an ultra-pointy setup on an already pointy car… well, it’s not optimal.

It’s rumoured that Gasly managed to rub Newey up the wrong way with feedback on the Red Bull’s handling characteristics, to the extent that Newey made it known that a return to Red Bull for Pierre would be unacceptable.

For the future Red Bull driver lineup… yes, other top drivers may be available in 26-27.  But will Red Bull still be seen as an attractive berth?